What does Toban teach us (at least me)?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Lgel, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. Guimengo

    Guimengo Registered

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    Your argument is understood but there is a significant difference from com8 Nürburgring to the versions recreated with the scan data. How bumps are implemented or reproduced is not the data's fault. Also, there is significant difference from Team ORSM's Bathurst to the ISI-sponsored Bathurst (same track as in NFS Shift 2/pCARS), and scan data. The modding group release is much closer to the iRacing version.

    Resurfacing will indeed alter the accuracy of bumps but not camber or elevations, so the argument of "resurfaced such and such since the scan means it's no longer accurate" is a bit of a stretch since other non-data based builds may feature grip that isn't accurate either, or also lack bumps.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  2. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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    Lool, of course not! They're trying to pickpocket you making you believe laserscan is better for "train"! :D

    I'm not saying that if a track is laserscanned i'll be unhappy, but it's not necessary or worth the cost for the majority of us, afterall we're racing on the same track, no matter if it's laserscanned or not!
     
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  3. fsuarez79

    fsuarez79 Registered

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    LOL. Have to agree with Lazza.

    @dadaboomda For days I've noticed that all your posts include the phrase "BEST REALISTIC SIMULATION MEANS (for me) :" even if the topic is what I had for breakfast this morning. Please stop dude.

    Staying on topic, I have to agree with the fact that Toban is great but so is Silverstone imo. I don't really care if it's real or fictional as long as the layout is good for racing that's all I care
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
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  4. ECAR_Tracks

    ECAR_Tracks Registered

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    So why bother on using a simulator? Taking your line to the limit, nothing needs to be accurate, a F1 mod can has three wheels since you'll never drive a F1 car.

    To simulate implies to be closer to the real thing as much as possible. Or we can all will drive Need for Speed.
     
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  5. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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    Guess you're going a bit confused with your interpretations...

    Are you a modder?
     
  6. Coutie

    Coutie Moderator

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    What does Toban teach us. Please stay on topic and stop attacking each other.
     
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  7. Guimengo

    Guimengo Registered

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  8. fsuarez79

    fsuarez79 Registered

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    Even though I agree with your whole post, I had a completely opposite experience with Nordschleife.
    Nowadays it's become the norm of all sims to have laser scanned tracks, Nordschleife being one of them and you can find it now in every sim due to its iconic status.
    Having driven the laser scanned version hundreds of times across different games, when I tried the non-laser version in RF2 it felt completely different and you almost need to re-learn the track and muscle memory and your mind start playing tricks on you. When i tried the laser scanned version I felt at home again as it's the track i've driven so many times.
    So i guess laser scanning only becomes an issue to me for the sake of consistency across sims in world renown tracks, besides that, I really don't care if it's laser scanned or not.
     
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  9. Skan

    Skan Registered

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    Toban taught me to drive on yet another track that I would have never seen otherwise. The immersion of a fantasy track is different and I enjoy it with no preference over real locations. It is just a different kind of enjoyment.

    As for the laser v.s. non-laser debate.... I do not care how the track is made as long as it is as close (lengths, widths, angles, elevations, etc.) to the real track it is modeled after as possible. If that takes a laser, so be it. If it does not, that's cool too. I do not have a pc powerful enough to enjoy the graphical benefits of laser scanned tracks. For those of you with VR, 4K, and anything else you would want on the highest graphics... of course you want whatever methods are going to produce a track that looks as close to real life as possible. I would as well. If that takes a laser, so be it. If it does not, that's cool too.
     
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  10. davidporeilly

    davidporeilly Registered

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    Surely if the data isn't reproduced accurately then the data is useless???
    Which returns us to the central debate, what is the incremental benefit of laser scanning?
    Therefore the outcome is the key issue. The original data is of no benefit to me.
     
  11. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    I jump on the Toban Bandwagon, I selected it for my latest racing fun, BT20, USF2000, and GT3 will come next, until now I've used only a single layout, I guess I can enjoy this location for a long time since I don't mind racing low powered cars and take advantage of the shorter layouts.
     
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  12. dadaboomda

    dadaboomda Registered

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    I use at 99% of the time the nordschleife, and the other 1% in Toban and dallas karting complex.
    Nordschleife to train.
    Toban for low powerfull cars (like skipbarber or clio).
    Dallas karting complex for ISI kart and for drift (C6 zr1 is excellent for this).

    The layout and the graphics of Toban are pleasant.
     
  13. WiZPER

    WiZPER Member

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    Best fictional track I've driven, in endurance series for years, back in rf1 - has to be Rattlesnake Point ☺️
     
  14. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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  15. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    Laser scanning is good for a more realistic recreation of macro level irregularities and elevation changed. For the general layout google earth provides a more than accurate picture.

    However laser scanning just provides a point cloud. It is up to the track designer how to use it. How close the modeled surface is to the scanned one will depend on his patience and accuracy standards.

    I have to say that the Monaco versions I have droven do not include the most known bump across the whole F1 track pack. I have never had to avoid the bump between Casino and Mirabeau because it didn't exist in the versions I have used so far. The official historical version does not have it either I would swear.
     
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  16. LilSki

    LilSki Registered

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    I disagree with this. Google Earth can be very very inaccurate. For flat tracks it can be pretty close but for any track with decent elevation changes it can be pretty far off.

    You guys are forgetting one thing when it comes to having good data. It is 1000x easier to model a track with good data. I don't necessarily believe in the whole "laser scanning or bust" mentality but I won't build a modern era track without some sort of scan data like an aerial laser scan (aka LIDAR even though it is all LIDAR, just depends on where it is mounted). You simply cannot get the correct cambers and proper elevation changes without some sort of scan data. I've even compared track CAD data to scan data and the CAD was pretty far off.

    The micro detail that ground based scanning gives you as stated doesn't always translate to the sim world anyway. rF2 has a bit of an issue with that since you don't drive on a high poly invisible mesh (you can but real road won't work right). But even sims that you do drive on a high res mesh the sim refresh rate still comes into play when you are at speed. But what ground based scanning does give you is a perfect reference for say curb heights, object locations, etc. and that is just as important as the main track in many ways.

    In the end ground based scanning is like painting by numbers when it comes to building the track and that saves on development time. Does the saved dev time compensate for the cost of the scan? I don't know to be honest but it is something think about.

    EDIT: Forgot mention there is nothing wrong with fantasy tracks as per the point of this thread. Mills, Toban, Blackwood (LFS), Maple Valley (FM), etc. are all great tracks.
     
  17. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    Regarding Google Maps, it is pretty much uselss when a track has bigger elevation changes or bridges:

    [​IMG]

    Then again, laser scanning is pretty expensive so if alternative methodes use different sources but offer the same results then I am all for it, because as a end user I won't have to finance the scan.

    Now back OT: Toban is pretty awesome and I would gladly see similar tracks in the future, same as I love Black Cat County in AC. I just hope that devs don't go down the FIA tracks route and concentrate more on NA or historical tracks. Besides a few exceptions most european based tracks are freaking boring and have no thrill.
     
  18. davidporeilly

    davidporeilly Registered

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    Well in my view it is a question of what aspect of the simulation is more important to you.
    Two simple examples are to say chose between a) an incredibly authentic and deep vehicle physics model or b) an incredibly accurate track. There are of course other choices like c) an incredibly beautiful and photo realistic camera mode. But for now lets look at a) vs b).
    If the cars physics are accurate, along with engine wear, temp tolerances, tyres, wet weather grip etc etc you can have an incredibly authentic racing challenge.
    It is not diminished greatly by a lets say tiny lack of accuracy in the track. I know this from experience.

    However the reverse is not true. IE an incredibly accurate track driven in a car with somewhat questionable physics model will not suffice at all.

    Tracks change over time. We can name almost any circuit and list evolutions over the last 40 years.
    Physics does not.
    So thats the bit that for me takes priority.

    Edit: and yes the three wheeled Formula car does take that line to the limit and applies it to a different aspect of the simulation.
    Following my argument here the car and its behaviours are ( my) core product.
    The tracks within a reasonable band of accuracy can have some small flaws and I don't mind.

    Expanding on the tracks change comment.
    Bathurst was a dirt road in the 1930s
    Tarmac but grass verges and the only occasional wooden fence in the 70s. The "dipper" was massive.
    In 1987 it got the Caltex Chase, prior it was a straight all the way to the final corner.
    Armco and concrete habe been gradually added, as have the complex fence structures that allow property owners to enter driveways but avoid blunt impacts.
    Any historical version would be terribly inaccurate today, but would it be bad racing?

    Edit #2
    Sticking to the OPs topic; Toban-Yeah!
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
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  19. NickSpeed

    NickSpeed Registered

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    The best online racing I've ever had was racing on Live For Speed and all those tracks were fictional. Real tracks are cool and all, but damn LFS just had it all.

    And I raced on there for many years and really never got tired of them, nor did I perfect any one of them, so in the end it was actually much better than allot of those laser scanned ones we see these days.
     
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  20. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    What does Toban tell us?
    That a good looking track doesnt have to be FPS-demanding.
    And that Lienz has to come with the same technique.
     
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