What does Toban teach us (at least me)?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Lgel, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. Lgel

    Lgel Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2014
    Messages:
    1,157
    Likes Received:
    236
    For newcomers to RF2, it is easy to overlook this track.
    Why? Because it is fictional.

    But in my view, it is an excellent track, very well rendered, immersive, technical, fun to drive, with a very good AI.

    Much more interesting to drive than the real, expensive (because licensed), flat and boring Silverstone.
    The best proof for me that you don't need a licensed laser scanned track to have fun and train in a driving sim.

    So if you haven't, give it a try.

    Cheers.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  2. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    63
    I absolutely agree.
    Same can be said for Mills metropark (I guess that is fictional too)
     
  3. dadaboomda

    dadaboomda Registered

    Joined:
    May 15, 2016
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    93
    "But in my view, it is an excellent track, very well rendered, immersive, technical, fun to drive, with a very good AI"
    TOTALLY AGREE. You can also say very good graphics, track well modelized, good layout etc.

    "Much more interesting to drive than the real, expensive (because licensed), flat and boring Silverstone."
    TOTALLY AGREE : silverstone is boring, flat, not interesting layout etc.

    "The best proof for me that you don't need a licensed laser scanned track to have fun and train in a driving sim."
    CONCRETELY : licensed OR/AND laser scanned track is not indispensable to have fun and to train *** BUT IT IS STRONGLY BETTER TO TRAIN AND MUCH MORE REALISTIC*** (not indispensable to have fun but to train I don't really agree 100%.).

    Like VR / good graphics are 2 things which are probably one part of the immersion in a sim in the future.... (really not my priority, speaking for myself).

    Laser scanned is one of the logical future things FOR BEST ***REALISTIC*** SIMULATION OF THE WORLD.

    To explain more in details :
    BEST REALISTIC SIMULATION OF THE WORLD IN THE FUTURE (rfactor OR NOT) MEANS (for me) :

    - BEST PHYSICS/FFB
    - CAR CONTENT WITH A LOT OF REAL DATAS
    - BEST ALGORYTHMS LIKE REALROAD, AQUAPLANNING, AERODYNAMICS, WIND etc.
    - REAL AND THE MOST ACCURATE TRACKS DATAS (laser scanned tecnology is the only which can put a realistic and accurate track in the best simulation).

    I add that having the best physics (tires in contact .... of the track) WITHOUT laser scanned tracks is .... strongly damage! Great to see the best simulator in terms of realism in 10 years!

    Only my opinion, only my wish for the future, only speaking for myself.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  4. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,068
    Likes Received:
    541
    @dadaboomda Seriously mate, you can't go saying the same thing in every thread. 80% of that post is completely off topic.

    Fully agree about good fictional tracks, and Toban and Mills have always been a blast.

    However, can't ignore that feeling of driving on a track you've seen in real life. Even F1GP back in the early 90s, as ugly as it looks now, gave that special feeling. Don't believe it was laser scanned, either.
     
    sg333, WiZPER, Rui Santos and 8 others like this.
  5. Ari Antero

    Ari Antero Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,301
    Likes Received:
    401
    Yes Toban is one of the best tracks there are and it is immersive, technical and fun to drive. Mills is nice one too.

    If S397 releases new version of Silverstone and says to us that it is laser scanned we wouldn`t notice if it is laser scanned or not especially if the guy behind the simwheel have never driven in Silverstone real life. Laser scanned tracks are only to increase sales and making us to feel that we are simulating as closer real life as it is possible with todays PC`s and other toys we may have.
    I am an old racing driver and if track is well made, laser scanned tracks are wasted money if you ask from me ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
    Kaitsu_69, Rui Santos, bwana and 7 others like this.
  6. Lgel

    Lgel Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2014
    Messages:
    1,157
    Likes Received:
    236
    I read on this forum a post (can't find it now) from a guy who seemed to know a lot about track modelling and laser scanning, and he said basically that it is difficult to have laser tracks scanned with enough detail, then that you had to drop a lot of the info when modelling tracks (cost of modelling, graphical load of a too detailed track, etc.).

    So I agree it is mainly a marketing trick, successful as many here are crying for laser scanned tracks.
    I would like to taste high end Champagne when finishing on the podium, delivered on the spot for free.

    If you have limited financing -as S397 - , better choose wisely where to spend.

    Cheers.
     
    bwana likes this.
  7. sg333

    sg333 Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,498
    Likes Received:
    64
    Toban is my favorite track, and id say 50% of my overall RF2 driving is done there.

    I do laugh at the folks who are 'laser scanned or nothing'. A good modeled track is all you need, unless you are a professional racing driver doing sim testing and then its unlikely you are driving a consumer level sim
     
  8. dadaboomda

    dadaboomda Registered

    Joined:
    May 15, 2016
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    93
    - "many here are crying for laser scanned tracks."
    - "I do laugh at the folks who are 'laser scanned or nothing'."

    Incredible as some people allow themselves to make negative judgments about others when they disagree.
    This shows great contempt and low maturity.
     
  9. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,487
    Likes Received:
    778
    I cannot agree more with OP.
    Real or fictional tracks have a designer behind.
     
  10. ECAR_Tracks

    ECAR_Tracks Registered

    Joined:
    May 1, 2016
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    208
    Laser scanning can be dismissed if you have a good conventional topographical survey, which is not so much cheaper (or handy) than a drone 3d scanning today.

    If you don't have either of these, it's impossible to reproduce the correct corner banks, kerbs height, bumps, etc. It will be just wrong. Cameras or in site racing are not enough to do that.

    Considering the unavailability of the most of original track blueprint and the natural difference from project and 'as-built', laser scanning is basically the only way to have a track with correct geometry. You can't say 'it's useless' since you not able to fell centimetres or few angle degrees when driving, but the lap times are sensitive to them.

    To finish: most of the times, Google Earth images are the Base for the track building even the really well modeled ones. From that, you already have METERS (in some case, more than 10) of error due the image distortion. So don't tell me laser scanner is marketing.
     
    Guimengo, adamfarmer and dadaboomda like this.
  11. dadaboomda

    dadaboomda Registered

    Joined:
    May 15, 2016
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    93
    - Very interesting and mostly FACTUAL post.
    You seem to have some knowledge about this.

    - I agree we can't say it is ***ONLY*** marketing.

    - I respect that for some guys it isn't a priority, we have all our wishes... for all things which increase a lot the realism (the only goal of a real simulation I think), for me that is priorities (the first priority is for me physics of course). Better is less content but exceptionnal quality (cars / tracks).
     
    ECAR_Tracks likes this.
  12. bwana

    bwana Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,629
    Likes Received:
    407
    I remember that post and the guy ( apparently employed as a track scanner ) said the power needed in a pc to make laser scanning any better than drone scanned was not achievable in consumer pc’s nor are track builders willing to create tracks with polys so small that the accuracy of laser scanned was mostly wasted as far as surface goes . A combination of accurate topograhical survey and well exucuted drone surveillance is every bit as relevant to sim users on even the best consumer pc’s
     
    McKiernan and ECAR_Tracks like this.
  13. ECAR_Tracks

    ECAR_Tracks Registered

    Joined:
    May 1, 2016
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    208
    And... You have to remember the physics engine is not infinitely accurate as well. To have a hundred of polygons under the tyre, depending on their average size, produces the same mathematical result than have 3 or 4 there.

    So the main job of a laser scanning is not to provide an absurd number of points but to provide the correct average track camber, subtle changes, kerb height, etc. These are not achievable with Google Earth or site pictures.
     
    Guimengo, Emery and bwana like this.
  14. Brack Jabham

    Brack Jabham Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    408
    Likes Received:
    124
    Toban is (for many years going back to the beginnings of rF1) the place where I test new cars. It has everything I need to understand the car - and I know it so well!
     
  15. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2010
    Messages:
    5,497
    Likes Received:
    940
    Toban is indeed a fantastic Fictional circuit, the Short layout (both directions) is great with lower powered cars and the longer layout a blast with GTs.
    Other worthy mentions as above Mills, Loch Drummond, Essington and the awesome Leinz....this one needs the DX11 treatment!
     
    davidporeilly and bwana like this.
  16. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2012
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    70
    TIRED of "laserscan fanboys" argumenting that a laserscanned track is better for "train", train for what? They'll never drive on the real one!!

    There are only a few, VERY few people that have the luck on driving the real tracks, on racing cars, or even on trackdays, a non-laser scanned track almost give you the same feeling, unless you can notice a 1 inch difference from a laserscanned one...

    If you train in a laserscanned or non-laserscanned track and then drive on the real one on a trackday with your Fiat Punto, you'll not notice the difference, believe me...


    Also agree that Toban is an amazing track! ;)
     
  17. WiZPER

    WiZPER Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,438
    Likes Received:
    153
    I can't stop thinking about those russian agents, spreading fake news on Facebook
     
  18. dadaboomda

    dadaboomda Registered

    Joined:
    May 15, 2016
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    93
    @Rui Santos

    You're tired of one thing :

    Read some posts in which the autors don't have the same opinion.

    Clever and constructive.
    BRAVO
     
    ECAR_Tracks likes this.
  19. Lgel

    Lgel Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2014
    Messages:
    1,157
    Likes Received:
    236
    Interesting post indeed, not a word relevant to the topic discussed.
    Cheers.
     
  20. davidporeilly

    davidporeilly Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2012
    Messages:
    530
    Likes Received:
    122
    I find the laser scanning conversation interesting.
    Interesting anecdotes from me are;
    I have had amazing racing on the Nords 24hr v2.01 by Pleclair, Tosch DJC et al. Including 2 and soon to be 3 events of 24 hours. Someone told me it wasnt completely accurate and I needed to try the ripped RF2 version of the laser scanned AC track. I tried it and didnt like it as much. It might have been geographically and topographically more accurate but the road surface was flat as a pancake, no bumps no nothing. No feel. So I guess for me, like driving Toban or Essington park Ignorance is bliss. I prefer the bad copy to the good one.

    Bathurst. I have driven the track in a road car and I have run it on foot twice (40 years apart). The RF2 version is awesome. But then I liked the RF1 version too, done by some enthusiasts.
    iRacing laser scanned it and then 1 year later it got a complete resurface. So the laser scanning is wrong.

    Eastern Creek and Wakefield Park.
    I have many laps on both. If I drove them in RF2 I don't think I could tell if laser scanned or not.
    I would probably look at the buildings and remember them more.

    Brands Hatch, I drove it in RF2, and in Race Pro on Xbox. Neither laser scanned.
    A few weeks ago I did my racing license test there in a Peugeot 208 gt1 hot hatch. Every thing was where I expected it to be. Any changes were probably less than the fact that my last drive there was in a virtual 911 GT3. Real fear and real G-forces probably made a bigger difference than laser scanning.
    Braking markers varied every lap based on tyre temp, how early the examiner covered the extra brake pedal with his foot, whether I was allowing faster cars past etc.

    Whats my point you ask.
    Well I guess it's that we race in a simulation. There are great tracks that are not laser scanned.
    If they were all laser scanned we possibly would still feel they were a bit different once we got there anyway in real life. Lines, braking points, sometimes even gear selection vary based on weather, grip, fuel loads, traffic. There is not one identical lap for most of us. If that statement is true than with say a 2% variance in our approach to a lap does a 1% variance in the track accuracy really matter?
    In real life, drivers arrive and practice, get a feel, remember the track and learn any changes.
    The actual track or any changes might be more divergent from their memories than the divergence between laser or not. What I mean is our brains are always recalibrating; grip, gearing, braking points etc.

    I respect that if a driver is seriously preparing for a real life race that it has a value. For those that aren't I don't share the fascination. The good non laser ones are great and laser doesnt IMO provide a new level of experience beyond the mentality that "wow this is a real laser copy"
    I am happy without.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
    osiris32, Mulero, Lgel and 7 others like this.

Share This Page