Very strong braking FFB (BMW M2 CS Racing)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by HomieFFM, Dec 6, 2019.

  1. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Registered

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    Edit: One possible Solution:

    Make sure to doublecheck if ABS is disabled in the difficulty settings!
    If there is anything turned on it can cause in combination with this car a very strong FFB effect (because the M2 has strong braking FFB on it's own already - I guess because it's also using really strong brakes in reality)!
    I had ABS turned on in the difficulty settings without knowing and that was resulting in this very high FFB reactions.
    Now turned off everything is fine and realistic again ;)

    (Note: The ABS will still appear stronger than in every other car, but wont break your wrist anymore like with the ABS difficulty setting turned on.
    To make it a little bit better, reduce the brakepressure in the setup menu to 50% and use FFB smoothing at least 4%. Also check your car specific FFB multiplier value, maybe reduce that as well, since this car has power steering the value shouldn't be set very high - depending on your wheelbase)



    _____________________________________________________________________________
    (This problem is solved, solution in the edit above)
    Original Post:
    The ABS/Tyre rubbing while braking can cause some very heavy FFB reactions.

    Noticing this in other cars as well, but there this kind of heavy reaction appears only if you really slam the brakes through the wall.

    With the newly released BMW M2 CS Racing this reaction appears very early with no really strong braking input, the forcefeedbake takes over the steeringwheel very heavily.


    (no cam sound in this video, but it's like it's ripping my sim-rig appart)


    I don't want to change my FFB or use any smoothing effects, since with all other cars it's perfect and I don't believe this would change this strong reaction anyway.

    I hope there are some ideas or informations, because otherwise I really would like to drive this car and everything else feels perfect, just this unusually strong braking behavior kills it.

    (Some people having the same experience with other directdrives)
    (I'm using Fanatec DD1)

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  2. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I think you're relatively new to rF2, so I'll point out that setting FFB Mult to around 0.65-0.75 will reduce clipping in most content. Clipping would make the described behaviour worse, though no one has posted telemetry yet to show what level this FFB is at. (if it's not high enough to clip, then there'll be no difference)

    Extra FFB at speed when braking is probably related to the tyre grip and wheel geometry (like scrub radius) since rF2 doesn't do brake locking effects. The video above shows it around 15-20kph, but I'm assuming there's also an effect at higher speed when locking brakes. Very low speed oscillations can be helped by reducing the controller.JSON parameter "Steering torque zero-speed mult", but bear in mind mine's already 0.3 by default. I don't know how quickly the effect disappears (it says zero-speed, but these things tend to 'fade out' as speed increases, up to a point) so even 15kph may be too high, but it's maybe worth trying (probably on 0.0 at first) to see if it can reduce some of the worst low-speed shaking.

    One final consideration, I take it you haven't made any FFB adjustments in the controller.json? It's possible some custom changes could make such an effect worse. (especially "steering torque sensitivity", which could magnify variations at either end of the FFB torque curve)
     
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  3. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Registered

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    Hello, thanks for answering and trying to help :)

    Yes I'm relatively new to rF2, I'm using 0.20 in the FFB Mult. and this works pretty well with every other car I have tried so far
    (I didn't changed anything in the controller.json).
    This behaviour appears at every speed, it's starting at a certain brakepressurepoint, but this point is reached so early it's almost impossible to brake at any corner without triggering this high FFB jump (and I'm braking very slowly and carefully).

    I even tried the FFB Mult at the lowest possible = 0.01 , even there, while almost no FFB noticeable, this effect was still slightly there.

    From what people were telling, rF2 doesn't work like they set values like ''ABS effect strength'', everything is calculated through the tyremodel (if I'm not wrong).... but just to describe this braking behaviour:
    It's like an ABS FFB Effect Level is set to 200% while everything else is set below 10% (in relation).

    Only with the BMW M2 CS Racing. :(
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
  4. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Yeah, reducing the FFB strength directly or via FFB Mult won't fix it, just make it less obvious while also reducing all other forces. 0.20 is quite low, your wheel profile should have the wheel set to 20Nm capability (via the controller.JSON) which means any cars with less force than that will be scaled down already, but in the end if 0.20 feels strong enough for you then that's fine.

    As you say, there aren't any addon effects, so there's not really much you can do. In games that generate things like self aligning torque and ABS feedback separately they can have sliders for each (a bit like audio settings), here for better or worse everything is simulated and you can only adjust the final output power.

    If the shaking was a very strong FFB effect you would perhaps benefit by inducing clipping, by increasing FFB Mult and then turning the wheel strength down (so the game's output clips at 100%, and your wheel settings make it weak enough to be comfortable to drive) but I don't know if this effect is that strong. It doesn't look extreme in your video, just unexpected. (if general driving forces were peaking at 18% output because of your 0.20 Mult, and then occasional vibrations were peaking at 40%, you could bring the vibrations down by clipping them. Having 0.20 Mult means the game still has 0.21-1.00 it can send to your wheel. But again I don't think it'll help here)

    Assuming this is tyre model related, hopefully they can tweak it in a future update (without sacrificing handling).
     
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  5. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Registered

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    Once again thank you,
    but I think I'm gonna leave it there and wait until they maybe tweak something for the direct drives (in the release thread were also a few people with different direct drives who are having the same effect).
    It doesn't look strong but trust me, even with this low 0.20 this braking effect is strong as hell, it's not possible to hold the steeringwheel straight.
    The sound from the cam is missing, otherwise you could tell there is something wrong xD... I don't even want to reproduce it anymore, because it's like hurting the direct drive (even if it wont damage anything, but it feels so brutal when the whole rig is shaking out of nowhere :D )

    besides having this issue, I like the fact that everything is simulated and nothing created ''artificially'' :)
    So let's see if there is something possible in the future, otherwise I'm having to skip this car, which is sad because it's pretty fun to drive. ;(

    thank you very much for all the informations :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
  6. Aaron O'Brien

    Aaron O'Brien Registered

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    I'm with you @HomieFFM Noticed the same yesterday i'm on a TS-XW did 5 laps plus of Sebring god i have my FFB on 75 had to chuck it down because Sebring so freaken bumpy lol sore AF wrist yesterday lol
     
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  7. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Registered

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    So you are having the same insane FFB reactions while braking with the BMW M2 CS Racing?
    And it also starts when you break just a little bit harder, but still in a normal range?
     
  8. Aaron O'Brien

    Aaron O'Brien Registered

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  9. Claude H.

    Claude H. Registered

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    Hi,
    the same here it’s related to the breakpressure if you set breakforce at 100% in the car setup menu it will start earlier to shake then with the default 50% setting.

    Claude
     
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  10. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    Don't know people afraid to use smoothing it's an option designed to rid situations like this. Like the awful vibration On the radical. It's just smoothes out peak ffb signals. Even devs recommended it at 4.
     
  11. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    The oscillation in the video needs more than 4/400 Hz smoothing.
     
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  12. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    Maybe it's possible to reduce the problem by playing with the abs or brake force settings from garage or difficulty settings. I don't remember if there was abs setting in garage.

    I can make my simucube vibrate pretty hard with braking if i want, but i seem to adjust my braking so that i'm not having much of that.
     
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  13. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Registered

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    I can make this with the Fanatec DD1 too if I want with to other cars, if I use a little bit more higher settings and push the brakes a littlebit harder.
    But with the M2 there is something wrong in that regard, which has nothing to do with any setup options, it appears with any setting and very early and way too strong.


    Yes setting the brake pressure to 100% definitely triggers this effect earlier.
    I made a comparison with the BMW GT3 , the brakepressure set to 100% and FFB Mult to my normal 0.20 (where this effect appears really strong on my setup with the M2) - and there is just a normal ABS effect, nothing nearly unusal like with BMW M2 CS Racing.

    So after all these observations, if I had to guess... there must be some value wrong,
    because meanwhile Low Force Steering wheel owners in the official release thread are talking about they finally feel a very good ABS effect,
    because those steering wheels can't reproduce the effects that a direct drive or stronger beltdriven wheelbase can, they don't experience any of these wrist breaking effects and just ''good'' (but most likely clipped) ABS effects.

    would be nice if any of the developers could say something about that, because otherwise this is just an guessing game,
    but this can't be intended in the first place.

    cheers
     
  14. Ermz

    Ermz Registered

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    My T500 must be the only wheel in existence that renders this effect as a fairly convincing display of ABS kicking in (assuming that's actually what's happening). At the very least it feels very similar to my road car, the times I've kicked ABS in.
     
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  15. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Registered

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    I checked the difficulty settings again and there is actually a ABS option! For what ever reason it was set on high!
    I disabled it and BOOM it's much better !

    Still the ''abs/braking effect'' is pretty strong but nowhere near what I was experiencing with this wrong difficulty setting!
    Now it feels very realistic again, so thanks for your helpful advice :D

    Now in combination with setting the brakeforce to 50% it's driveable!

    In one video about this car they actually mentioned that it's using a very very strong braking system, so maybe that's why the effect is stronger than in other cars.
    But in combination with ABS helping from the difficulty settings it's getting out of control,
    so make sure to doublecheck if this setting is really disabled! :)

    Thanks to all of you guys for helping out, nice Forum :)


    Alright you convinced me, I tried the ffb smoothing with 4 and it actually does feel better, thank you ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
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  16. 1nProgress

    1nProgress Registered

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    Have made suggested adjustments to in-game settings on ABS (off), smoothing (5) and min torque (3%) to reduce oscillation and still think the FFB under braking is too severe.

    in addition to these rF2 settings, I’ve disabled BR ABS and reduced F.EFF.INT to 70 on Fanatec CS v2.5.

    Can someone from Dev look into this and post some advice pls?
     
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  17. Tomislav Leskovic

    Tomislav Leskovic Registered

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    What is your multiplier value? I have CSW v2.5 and for s397 cars max value that I have for any car is 0.75 (and as low as 0.45).
     
  18. 1nProgress

    1nProgress Registered

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    Multiplier is 0.70. This is right in the range you are stating. The thing about this particular issue is that the braking response through the wheel is way above the general feel of driving the car. Any car really. It is a lot of harsh and forceful clattering and rapid oscillation like the rotors have been warped into something with rocky surfaces!

    So yeah, one could lower the overall ffb multiplier, but that would in turn make the steering too light relative to such a race vehicle. It’s a question of mix and balance of this effect. It is simply too much of a spike response under braking.
     
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  19. HomieFFM

    HomieFFM Registered

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    I removed the ''solved'' prefix from the thread, since you still have this problem.

    I quoted this from the release thread, maybe this is helpful if any Dev takes a look into this thread:

    This car has definitely some stronger FFB braking behaviour than any other car in rF2.
     
  20. Wergilius

    Wergilius Registered

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    I'ts something with this car, I have no ABS assist and gain around 0.75. In-game filter is 0, but as that is global for all cars, I don't think the solution is to change it, if other cars don't have this behavior. Simucube reconstruction filter is set to 7 (range is 0-10) and using peak & notch filter.

    Either the suspension or tyres should have properties so it is the "road" and "tyres" creating this in an correct way IMO. But the buzz in the wheel rim teaching you to back of the so it might be a good thing :rolleyes:o_O
     
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