Tyre wear not yet implemented?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by martymoose, Oct 3, 2012.

  1. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    I did go online and found a server with the F2 at Mid Ohio last nite and realized how far off the pace I was, guys were doing 1:08's with the chicane and though there was a ton of rubber down I only managed to get down to 1:10's. I did get a setup from one of the other quick guys and though it was a little quicker I had zero FFB feel from it and felt like it was doing nothing and I may as well have turned FFB off.

    If we drive to our limitations of hardware and skill level and if other wheels give better feedback then this is a pretty tricky thing as what I tried in the other persons setup made the steering feel so bad it no longer felt like driving a real car and took away all feel and immersion from my driving experience. If someone else can use that sort of setup and get good feedback from a different wheel or ffb settings then they could much easier get the most out of it, but its also likely that the fast setups are exploiting physics loopholes and so are not what you would do in a real car which could be a reason for the terrible FFB with it.

    This makes me think as I was driving to the feel given from my wheel and as all wheels may be setup different, mine is a g25 pretty much stock setup. The FFB has a pretty big impact on how I drive the car and with the setup I was using I got great feedback from the front tyres but after this session I also realized I had way too much push in the setup losing some cornering speed due to this. I was basing my laptimes off the AI times and not the online aliens so I thought even though it was a little pushy if its still faster then the AI and so I was ok with the pace.

    But still even though some may be quicker then others and setups may stress different parts of the car, as in my last example if you get one driver that runs consistent laps pretty much on their limit tyre wear should have a negative impact in much the same way as a green track vs completely black track. This is evident as everyone's lap times improve as the track rubbers in so then everyone's times should also reduce as the tyres start to go away from you. Its not only the fastest guys that manage to find more time on a good track but they may find some more, the slow guys will also find some time but its all relative some find more others less.

    Completely shot tyres should have reduced grip in my assumption at least and also in JTBO's brake test it shows to have no effect and this is at the extreme level getting towards 100% worn where even on long life tyres they should lose performance by this time. The FFB differences are another variable but if this is kept the same for fresh and old rubber then the feedback should be relative to what the car is doing if setup and driver is the same as is the track evolution evident by anyone that has ever driven RF2.
     
  2. Minibull

    Minibull Member

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    ^^ Holy crap, how on earth do you a 1:08 with the chicane?? I managed consistent low 1:11s with no chicane, but I'm still learning the track fully. That being said, I doubt I could pull 3 full seconds out.

    I use a G25 too, and have to run the FF filter to stop the racket from the wheel. Maybe these guys have the Fanatec clubsport wheels, or something at a similar level and don't have to run the filter, giving them no latency.

    Pretty sucky if that were the case, as I'm sure a lot of us can't shell out thousands of dollars for a wheel
     
  3. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    I think that if you want to go alien speeds, turn ffb off and learn to drive without it as ffb has always delays that actually reduce times, when you learn to drive without ffb you can be faster, or then just ignore ffb. When I was interested to get fastest time, I turned ffb off and clearly my times did improve as I could react on time instead of waiting ffb. Of course G25 delays are nothing compared to MS FFB wheel (gameport version), but my eye tells me there is small delays still, maybe around 0.2 secnods as when I see and react it is usually at time I react when ffb starts telling something, but that 0.2 seconds can be difference going really really fast or spinning out.
     
  4. Minibull

    Minibull Member

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    True, the top hotlappers I saw in GTR2 all turned off the effects their wheels had. No vibration of any kind, all they wanted was the FFB for the weight transfer and loading.


    Now, that isn't realistic to me. If a driver hits a kerb, the wheel doesn't just sail smoothly over it. Ontop of that, the rumble strips were being exploited right to the edge, as in most corners and corner exits having 3 or all wheels actually over the white lines and onto the astroturf.


    Interesting to note that Martymoose won vs them...;) lol
     
  5. gorgias1976

    gorgias1976 Registered

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    I can't either find the fun in doing that.
     
  6. jubuttib

    jubuttib Registered

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    FWIW I though I'd mention that logs generated with an FFB benchmark tool the first move latency of the G25 (How long it takes for the wheel to react when forces go from 0-100 instantaneously) is around 9-11 ms, meaning ~0.01 seconds.

    0.2 seconds is an insanely long time and you really wouldn't be able to use the FFB for anything if it took that long.
     
  7. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    Seeing as the FFB on the F2 is some of the best I have felt in a sim to date and I bought my wheel for the FFB then Id rather stay slow and use it then turn it all off and be faster. I much prefer driving in a way that simulates real driving and going beyond that if thats needed for alien speeds then good luck to those that do but I will just happily start mid pack and let them all wreck in front of me anyway :)

    Im also not a big fan of setups that exploit the physics beyond what should be possible in the real car and honestly all the immersion goes away when driving in a way needed for such laptimes. Getting rid of FFB and using crazy low wheel rotation settings just takes away the fun from it for me. I drive racing sims because Im a real racer that doesn't have the cash to afford real racing at this time and getting an accurate sim is a good way to get my fix. Im not a gamer that needs to win everything and I couldn't care less if I win or not its the thrill of driving and racing that is much more important then winning for me.

    Ive had better races with ai then online with bigger fields no lag, too many others just go out and drive way beyond their abilities and struggle to put 5 laps together let alone 10, 20, 50 or more. Im impressed by the ultimate pace some guys can do but if Im 2 seconds a lap slower and still win by a lap over just 10 laps then whats the point of being so quick. 10 Laps is a sprint race in my view but going by the amount of people that finish a 10 lap race online this is too much for most and the reason most never even realized tyre wear wasn't working because many never run more then short hot lap stints.
     
  8. gorgias1976

    gorgias1976 Registered

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    [​IMG]
     
  9. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    Guess why I stopped attempts of getting faster times? Yeah, been there, done that, these days I just enjoy and try to get cars work as closely as cars in reality having that perfect immersion, because I just like driving and all sensations from it, mastering the car and track, to have those corners nailed perfectly that is something I enjoy most.

    Best online races hands down were those where few of us similarly thinking drove together, everyone at lead considered it poor place and sometimes slowed down to have that nice battle to have extended time, if one of us spun we tended to wait until he catches up and then pick up speed again, good old days when there were gentlemen code and all that :p

    Cars I'm currently working on have automatic boxes, most of them, I'm starting to feel silly driving some ISI made cars, what is that all hazzle with gears and all, haven't got time to sip my drink while driving, I guess I have lost that racing spirit, but really do enjoy driving with tires squealing :D
     
  10. Marek Lesniak

    Marek Lesniak Car Team Staff Member

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    Fortunatelly, there's not much of a use of cruise control on a race track :p
     
  11. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    I dont think there is much use for a safety car on a race track either, but both would work well together ;)
     
  12. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    It would be really useful for AI cars to make them mimic traffic. What do you mean road is not a race track? :eek:
     
  13. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    Just watching the Bathurst 1000 atm and its interesting to see how in the first stint they are having huge issues getting 20 laps in with tyres and cant some are struggling to run a full fuel load so far. Was interesting to see how they are also running fairly different camber levels on both rear tyres as was shown on the grid. Lef rears I think it was were much more upright and they are the ones causing issues with some teams.

    Hearing from the Dunlop engineer its likely because the teams are all pushing setups beyond the tyre specs and left rears are delaminating. It would be pretty cool if RF2 could do similar things so that people pushing setups beyond spec limits of the tyres will not only lose more performance on a longer stint but also be more likely to have such major tyre issues. In an ideal world simulations wise there would be bad side effects to pushing alien setups beyond real world physical limits and something id love to see in RF2 at some point in the future.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 7, 2012
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  14. Minibull

    Minibull Member

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    Hahaha, you know what? I was thinking exactly the same thing while I'm watching it. These big things ripping through they tyres, with some uncertainty as to what is causing it. Some say kerbs, camber, running too low pressures.

    I immediately thought of rFactor 2 though lol
     
  15. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    He he I doubt most of them will make the end as its the first time they are trying to push for a full fuel run. Interesting fact when watching lap times they are faster when heavy then at the end of the run so tyre wear is worse then fuel burn effect.

    But maybe these guys just don't know where the grip limits are as Tim said lol, the track is getting faster and will be fastest last few laps but only guys on fresh tyres will have the pace.
     
  16. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

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    Either way, I'll bring this thread up, but if the resident genius of Ann Arbor is happy with the model, or knows he has to do something in the future, or was intending to anyway, I'm happy.
     
  17. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    I bet my money on intended to do anyway, that would be if I would have any money, which I don't :(
     
  18. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    Thanks Tim, Im not saying every tyre should have a very negative effect or fall off the cliff as they say in F1. But there is generally some change in grip levels through the tyres life and if you check laptime data of most series you can normally see how the laptimes change throughout stints. Fuel burn is pretty easy to model as its basically just a weight reduction and it looks to be well done in RF2 as is. Tyre wear though is always going to be the hardest thing to simulate as its not as linear and not always as expected, then when you factor in track evolution it makes this a very complex thing to model.

    I do really like how you can feel the grip form a green track to a well rubbered one atm and if something along those lines can be implemented in tyre wear but adjusted on a per tyre basis it would be great and bring tyre strategy into the sim as it is in real racing.
     
  19. stonec

    stonec Member

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    Bump. This is one area I feel that needs more focus in future builds. As has been said, tire wear at the moment is pretty much non-existent. This means that it's practically pointless to do pit stops during races, unless you have to refuel. Another thing which seems not to be implemented yet is puncture, as the LCD will show tires forever remaining at one bar left.
    I hope this is something that will change soon since pit stops are such an essential part of racing.
     
  20. coops

    coops Banned

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    just bring on the full tyre model ASAP.
     

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