Tyre wear not yet implemented?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by martymoose, Oct 3, 2012.

  1. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    I haven't seen this officially mentioned anywhere as yet but possibly it is but I may be just blind lol. But to me tyre wear has zero effect in the current build v107 and all those before.

    I have only ever done 2 full fuel runs so far, one a while back in the f3.5 at Mills and just now a full run in the f2 at mid ohio. During the full runs both times as the fuel load has gone down my laptimes have been pretty much the same as with new tyres and the same fuel load.

    Here is my motec of a full run at Ohio in the F2 with just me on track, lap times in the data are .2 faster then the real times for some reason the track is a fraction short in motec. http://www.mediafire.com/?t2hb33eczptzc32

    Here are the track conditions for the session.
    View attachment 4137

    I did this also to see how much of an effect track rubbering has on the car, but due to heavy fuel at the beginning the early laps have hardly any grip. First few laps were 1:15s, lap 9 was in the 13s, lap 14 got to the 12s, lap 16 in the 11s and lap 41 got to the 1:10s

    My best lap here from my last session here is a 1:10.417 AI rubbered track and 10 laps of fuel, this session my best lap was 1:10.873 on lap 49. My 52nd lap was under my PB time but I royally ^&%*ed up the last turn losing concentration as my fuel light was blinking losing .7 in the last 2 sections and only being .2 slower then the fastest lap that session. Would have been about 1:10.1 if I didn't get stuck on the last kerb lol so I think with the same amount of rubber as the end of that session 1:09s are quite possible.

    I know that tyres can go off if you overheat them through bad setup or over-driving but if you keep them from overheating they will do the same times all the way around just dependent on fuel load. Any idea from ISI when they may implement tyre wear as this is a pretty important aspect for modders to get the tyres to last similar to their real world counterparts.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2012
  2. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    There is slight difference, but it is easily overcome by rubber buildup.

    With F2 car I drove so many laps that tires did wear completely accoding to indicator, after that I made mad burnouts and drifts, after that I continued lapping and it was very little worse than new tires and green track, new tires and rubbered track of course was then bit better, but nothing huge there.

    However it is impossible to wear tires to 'fabric' or get blow ups. So it is not completely ready yet, I think.
     
  3. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    According to the motec data tyre wear that session at Lap 49 1:10.873 after just under 1 hour on track with that set of tyres.
    FL 3.65%
    FR 7.46%
    RL 33.82%
    RR 47.86%

    My best lap here 1:10.417 with probably more rubber down, 29 AI same weather settings probably 30 minutes track time so many more laps run then above with just me on track in 1 hour. This was on lap 3 of the stint and tyre wear according to motec.
    FL 90.68%
    FR 90.11%
    RL 96.14%
    RR 96.46%

    I was even faster on my last lap then my PB on lap 52 which was 3 laps later so I dont think there is any tyre wear at all implemented yet.

    If you do burnouts your tyres will be severely overheated if you let them cool down and normalize again you will be able to do the same exact lap times but when they are too hot they are complete turds lol.

    Below is my PB lap motec data so you can compare fresh vs the old tyres.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2012
  4. jubuttib

    jubuttib Registered

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    I have tested it a couple of times, and by the time your tyres are worn significantly the line is nicely rubbered in, and the difference isn't that huge. If you don't stick to the line however it's much worse than driving on cold tyres on a green track. There's definitely an effect there.

    Disclaimer: 60s F2, some builds ago.
     
  5. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    I think thats just the difference between being on line and off line not, shouldnt the tyres degrade in performance after 1 or 2 laps? Your ultimate best lap time should be on a fresh set with low fuel and after a full run of fuel they should be at least a second or 2 slower then if your were to pit and get new tyres on a low fuel run.

    I can do the same lap times with 52 lap old rubber as 3 lap old rubber and this should have an effect on the racing line, Id try older tyres but need a larger fuel tank lol. My comparison with the 3 lap old tyres was on a more rubbered in track then when I ran 52 laps on my own. Surely 15-20 laps with 29AI will produce more rubber then 52 laps on your own, with the AI after just 3 laps by each car there is already 87 laps run by the field so it would have been much grippier in that session then running on my own

    I have tried this with the GTR, F3.5 and also F2 with pretty much the same results. If its your first time on a track though after a full run you will be much faster on the track then before as you would have learned a lot in the run. With fronts down to less then 5% it should be much worse then new rubber is but this isnt the case from all my long run tests.
     
  6. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    Depends from tires, Nascar tires I have read being still such that they wear down and grip goes down.

    F1 tyres on the other hand are not always quite so linear, I remember reading about tire war when two brands competed with each other, other one had made such tires that they could put best time after 10th lap or so. Exact numbers and names have escaped me already, but that was general idea.

    This is GT1 car tires, at least from my memory, now that mentioned 52% is from 1.176. So heating to 250C makes tires to have around 0.893 grip modifier by heat, which is 76% of maximum static grip. Base static grip coeff is 3.00 so that would be down to around 2.28, 60's historic have static base coeff around 2.0. Of course there are lot other parameters affecting grip. but this is by heat.

    StaticCurve=(173, 0.61, 373, 1.176, 673, 0.61) // at -100C there's 52% of maximum static grip, at 100C it's maximum, at 400C it's back down to 52% of max static grip

    And what comes to tire wear then can be seen here for GT1 car:
    GrooveEffects=(0.17,0.17,0.14,0.10) // maximum groove increases grip for: static friction, sliding adhesion, sliding micro-deformation, sliding macro-deformation

    So maximum tread with new tires adds 17% static grip, it is unclear to me if groove adds 0% when tire is worn as much as it will wear.

    ThermalDepthAtSurface=0.0001 // the depth of the temperature sample layer used for contact properties (i.e. grip and wear); if provisional second layer is disabled, tread will never be allowed to get thinner than this value

    ThermalDepthBelowSurface=0.0004 // (if provisional code enabled) the depth of the second layer; value should be >= surface layer but not too big; tread will never be allowed to get thinner than these two layers

    That is why I'm unsure, it can be from 0 tread depth or from that defined minimum tread depth, but difference is probably relatively small, haven't actually bothered to calculate that, but we are talking about less than 1/10th left at minimum because TreadDepth=0.005

    Does it happen so then? One could test by braking with new tires and worn tires at pitlane, with enough brake pressure to lock all wheels and see if there are difference in braking distances.

    That is my modder view to subject.

    I have heated tires to over 1000C and they appear to be fine after cooling, I think that tires should go boom at that point, same for when all tread is worn, that is probably still WIP.
     
  7. Minibull

    Minibull Member

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    Well I just did a full fuel run around Estoril in the Renault 3.5. Just learning the car and track as it was new to me. I started in the 1:30.XXX range and over the run that lowered to mid 1:28.XXX, low 1:28, low 1:27 and then I stayed around there for 25 laps-ish.
    And then right in the final 10 litres, I upped my pace and did a few mid 1:26 laps, with the fastest lap coming on the final lap...and then I had to crawl back to the pits on 2 litres XD

    So yeah, no drop off in performance, and the quicker laptime may be just because of learning the car and track. Maybe fuel weight has no effect?
     
  8. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    Im pretty sure fuel has an effect as the cars need to break earlier, and doesnt get the same speed as a low fuel car. First time out on car and track isnt going to give you the best results best to go out when your close to nailing your laps. I haven't tried a heavy car on a rubbered track yet, Ive always just been starting out full but the car definitely feels heavier with a full tank. And my laptimes do drop down about 5 seconds from the green track full tank to fumes after rubbering it in during the run. Possibly around 2-3 seconds between green and 1 hrs rubber from one car lap time wise so then fuel would be around the same amount of time for a full tank in the F2.

    If you did a full run and then went to the pits and topped up the fuel you would be a couple seconds slower still and this is pretty linear as the fuel burns down.

    However there is no loss in times between 50 lap old tyres and 3 lap old tyres from what I can tell and my tyre temps were pretty stable throughout even at the end when my left front got to 0% the fronts were still around 80c on lap 52.
     
  9. Minibull

    Minibull Member

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    Yeah I guess you are right about fuel. It's hard to tell though whether it is just the rubbering on the track lowering the laptimes.
    I'll be a masochist and do 2 full runs tomorrow in the same session. I feel pretty good around the track now, car feels great too.

    Certainly right with tyre wear and temps though, 78-85 degrees through the session, no drop off noticable.



    Also one thing I just tested, is wind actually in the game? I turned it up to 720kph or something...the flags were still fluttering gently and I didn't go flying off the track XD
     
  10. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    I remember Tim mentioning wind is not yet implemented, should be pretty cool once it is as it will make a pretty big difference.

    Not sure if anyone ever raced in a category 12 hurricane or whatever 720kph would be. The f3.5 at estoril is good fun I ran a few laps there a while back but Im kind of stuck in the F2 atm lol.
     
  11. Rony1984

    Rony1984 Registered

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    I have looked at some TBC files and for every tyre saw 100C to give the highest max static grip(havent checked all though). Does this mean one should try to keep the tyres about the 100C range? If so, I wouldnt know how. With every car I get the temps up to about 70-80, mostly with the lowest tyre pressure.

    Greets,

    R
     
  12. buddhatree

    buddhatree Registered

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    No tire wear you say?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Those shots are by DD.
     
  13. Minibull

    Minibull Member

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    Did Durge mention anything about any kind of dropoff? Slower Laps?

    I'm still gunna do 2 full runs though...coz I'm bored XD
     
  14. tjc

    tjc Member

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    I`m not 100% sure on this but I think the tyre ware your seeing in Durge`s shots are from the AI once he`s made them do about a million laps to rubber up his room lol. :D

    I think the tyre ware is only implemented on the AI at present but as I say, not 100% on this.

    Great shots though aren`t they and the tyre ware graphically looks fantastic. :)
     
  15. buddhatree

    buddhatree Registered

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    Yes he did say it's only visible on AI. But that's different from it being only implemented on AI.

    Heck I don't know. I usually don't last enough laps to feel tire wear. I crash a lot :D
     
  16. tjc

    tjc Member

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    lol... I have to say I`m in that bracket too :D

    Your right to correct me there budd... I should have said it`s only visible on the AI indeed and not that it`s not implemented yet. :)
     
  17. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    Look TGM, TBC is used by AI, not by human player.

    But in TGM it seems to be quite often around 100 too.

    When cornering tires tend to heat up easily to around 100, at least for me, then at straight they drop to around 80, tires seem to cool really fast.

    Being bit below 100 on straight would be then probably best so that you are getting that 100 when cornering so you get best traction when that traction is needed. It does not matter if on straight temps are less.

    Setting up car should then be done so that setup allows driving bit loose car so that temps do go up when cornering, trying to aim that tiny bit of sliding where grip is most optimal, very hard to do as window is fairly small, but with enough practice and starting with forgiving setup, I think it is very possible to get hang of it.



    You can also make a pitstop in practice mode, drive ton of laps, get new tires and fuel, do again ton of laps, that way one could find out effect of track rubbering to lap times.
     
  18. Rony1984

    Rony1984 Registered

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    Thanks for the info. Yep you are right, I mixed them up but meant TGM:)
     
  19. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    I just ran a ton of laps at croft in the F2 lol, 2 full runs and a few short stints. What I found is this is not the best track for consistant lap times as a tiny mistake through turn one cost .5s and the last 2 turns can easily cost 1 second if slightly off.

    This was done with 21 AI too so run 1 my best lap was 1:09.448 on lap 50, second stint with lots of rubber I wanted to see what I could do with a full fuel load and lap 3 with probably my best lap of the entire session was a 1:10.321 and best lap that stint was 1:09.813 but I died before running out of fuel after about 30 laps clipping a tyre bundle and a huge crash lol.

    Then I ran a few 5 lap stints and did 1:09.10 as my best but average lap was a about 1:09.80 as I really have trouble putting together 3 good sectors at this track. I could do a high 1:08 if I put a lap together but never managed to get one great lap on low fuel.

    I found a full tank is about a second a lap here but I can vary about .8 per lap just by a couple of tiny mistakes so the gap could be more like 1.3 seconds for a full tank considering the full fuel fast lap was probably my best 3 sectors and on low fuel this would have been likely a high 1:08. But when it comes to actual tyre wear there is no difference in performance between lap 3 or lap 50. I have not done any long runs on the historic GP cars so not sure about them but of all the cars with slicks tyre wear isn't there.

    Overheating is a big issue such as when running wets or inters on a drying track, they get cooked within a lap and a half with a dry line and so are useless. Also bad driving causes tyres to overheat and lose grip but running a full tank of fuel on F2 F3.5 or GTR have no effect on tyre performance at all.

    Those pics of tyre wear look great but just like wind I think its only a graphical implementation atm.
     
  20. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

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    They do.

    I assume as your tires were wearing, the rubber was building on the race track and your fuel was reducing? If you don't abuse tires, you're not going to wear them out completely unless they are designed to do it, like the current F1 tires. That's not what rubber companies want.
     

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