Tyre wear not yet implemented?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by martymoose, Oct 3, 2012.

  1. 88mphTim

    88mphTim I'm new here Staff Member

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    Um, who is assuming that when the tread wears down, laptimes would be slower? I'm assuming nobody is really aware of the findings (mainly at the Indy 500) where the cars got faster with reduced tread.

    Edit: Didn't this even happen with the treaded tires in F1 in the late 90's? Where the intermediates would wear down to slicks?

    Tires are complex things, I think people should stop assuming all tires and situations have the same outcome. :)

    This is part of rFactor2. You're in an evolving race situation, with many factors. Some may counteract each other, some may not.
     
  2. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    Tim but Im finding I can do the same lap times after 50 laps on a set of tyres as I can with a set thats only a few laps old, the tyre wear was down to 0% on motec yet there was no drop off in performance at all. I could set lap times within a couple 10ths of my best laps and then even when trying some short stints on low fuel after the long stints the tyres had no different amount of traction between 90% or 0% wear.

    I did think at first it was just the counteracting of fuel load and evolving track but after a bit more testing I cant see any difference in performance at any wear rate.

    In F1 as an example they will need to use a fresh set of tyres for qualifying and these will lose maybe a few tenths each lap. They only do 3-4 laps on a set in each stint and then dont re use that set for the next stint because it will have lost a bit of peak performance but this is not happening in RF2 atm. I could go out and run 50 laps on a set of tyres and then as the fuel burns down on a good lap set my best lap equal to what can be done a new set of tyres straight after that stint.

    From my recent testing with the F2 I would have to say there is no noticeable drop-off in performance through a full run of fuel but is this how the real tyres work in that category? I know in some GT racing they double stint the tyres as the drop-off is less then the time lost changing tyres and so it may be faster at times.

    I haven't driven the FISI much but if these are based on modern F1 then the tyres should have very significant drop-off more then any other series atm. The GTR, F3.5 and F2 though have tyres that perform just as well after a full fuel run as they do after 3 laps which is why Im wondering if its actually being factored in.

    Tomorrow I will try and set tyre wear to max as I just had it at normal and no fuel use so will have min fuel load for as many laps as I want and there should surely be a point where the tyre performance would start to go away would it not even with the evolving track.
     
  3. 88mphTim

    88mphTim I'm new here Staff Member

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    Unfortunately, it's impossible to discount the biggest variable in your findings: You. It's difficult, especially in a rhythm, to take advantage of any extra grip you may have. The fact that you're not saying you are hugely faster, or hugely slower, may be because you're being consistent, which is what any race team would want from you. Compare Force India, and Sauber, to other F1 teams. Other F1 teams have massive dropoff in their tires, while some can quite happily make them last. Whether that is the driver, or their cars, is really unknown. And that's really all that could be said about your testing. For tires to "perform" it is all open to what you do with them. There's some things to be tidied up with the tire model, but it is functional as it is, even if it's not working as you want because of either you, or because of them just working the way they work. :)
     
  4. John.Persson

    John.Persson Registered

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    So are your times dead on or a few tenths after testing?
     
  5. smithaz

    smithaz Registered

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    Can we stop blaming it on the guy who brought this up. I have noticed too that tyre wear doesn't seem to be all that important a factor at the moment, what's wrong with admitting that.
     
  6. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    That is true its hard to take the driver out of it, but I'm not the fastest driver around even though my tests at croft were .9 faster then the fastest ai at 120% on my best lap and my average laps on fully worn or fresh tyres with less then 6 laps of fuel had an average lap of 1:09.8 when the fastest ai could do was 1:09.98

    The funny thing is the setup I'm using at croft is made by another guy and he claims its a qualy setup, if I can do the same pace on a full stint I don't see why you wouldn't race on that sort of setup.

    At Ohio my lap times are much more consistent and still more then .8 faster then 120% ai with lap times. I really am surprised though that I can pretty much match my best laps after a full stint or on a short stint with no noticeable loss in grip. I found the same at mills and estoril in earlier tests so maybe I am just the perfect driver that gets zero wear or im too crappy to go much faster with the more grip from new tyres?

    Using the f1 example all teams run short stints in qualy to get the most out of the tyres and even the teams doing better on tyres have a big improvement in lap times as soon as they change rubber in a race every 20 to 30 laps.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2012
  7. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    NOTE: You canĀ“t compare actual F1 tires with other racing slicks!
    The F1 ones since Pirelli are VERY special and are made to loose grip!

    There is no physical logic (in general) that would explain that you would have a loss of grip on racing slicks
    at 80% wear compared to 100%, unless the tires are researched and produced to do so!

    As Tim says: Do you remember the days when F1 tires gained MORE grip just after a few laps?

    Greets
    Pete
     
  8. 88mphTim

    88mphTim I'm new here Staff Member

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    It could be that you are not on the limit of the tires when they are new, like you say. Then you are closer to it, but possibly still not on it, when they are old. This would explain both the lack of wear and the lack of difference in time. If you're driving below the limit, and braking in the same place, carrying the same speed, and accelerating in the same place, none of which really uses the tire at it's most, that might be the issue.

    Not to say there may not be some tweaking to do, but I certainly see a difference, but I'm not as consistent as it seems you are with most of the cars.
     
  9. Domi

    Domi Registered

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    If I recall correctly, Michelin F1 grooved tires (in 2003, I think) were almost slicks at the end of the stints.
     
  10. 88mphTim

    88mphTim I'm new here Staff Member

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    Ah yeah, maybe that's what I was thinking of. Point is, don't always expect you know what a tire is going to do... The things I read about the Indy 500 specifically were from the 1960's, where they used grooved tires, and at times when the tread wore down, they actually had more grip, but the instability of the tire when worn (it could unravel) and fear of that would cause them to pit. I've seen how tires looked after the race, and there often was little tread.

    I do seem to recall Bridgestone intermediate tires being used in the dry, too... But yeah, grooved dry tires also wore down sometimes, gave an increased contact patch, and more grip.
     
  11. Gearjammer

    Gearjammer Registered

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    Tire manufacturers have been building in total laps into their tires for some time now. NASCAR is a prime example of this as they want the tires to last about 30 to 40 laps and require a pit in order to continue. The manufacturers could do the opposite if they felt like it, but that would mean that the race would be decided by driving and not pit strategy as it is for the most part now.
     
  12. Minibull

    Minibull Member

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    You guys at ISI have all the data and know what is happening, so I'm not arguing with that. And granted yes, I'm not the fastest around by a long shot. Just seems odd that I raced for 1 hour and 10 mins IIRC, pushing as hard as I could on the last chunk of laps and the tyres stayed fairly static.

    I suppose that matches the real WSR, with 1 mandatory pitstop...maybe the tyres they pull off are fine.
     
  13. argo0

    argo0 Registered

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    So, by the rationale presented by ISI in this thread, in many racing series, only a top few per cent of us will be able to push our tyres hard enough to ever experience tyre wear that would be to the detriment of lap times? Or have I misunderstood?

    What about doing doughnuts constantly for an hour? Does that produce tyre wear that would affect performance?
     
  14. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    As kid we used to race junkyard cars on ice, despite the road safety departments claims, tires worn so that they had no tread left were best when it was enough cold, as we could not afford proper tires, we used what we found from junkyard, that also kept speeds low.

    However when those tires gave away there was absolutely nothing one could do as they really did not regain grip at all, also as track got smoother they started to loose grip really quick.

    Of course such fun was banned by some nannying safety worshipers and standard of drivers has been going down ever since.

    If I'm not mistaken however, GT1 tires are showing up 17% more grip when new, that is quite a bit, I would imagine that should be quite easy to test if they really have that much more grip, it should be easily noted from cornering G forces for example, track rubbering is rather simple to remove from equation when doing testing first with worn tires, after that pit get new tires and test again. I haven't tested and doubt that I will have time for that right now.

    Using laptimes is indeed bit hopeless method, too many variables, skidpad or braking test is much easier to have controlled results and see what is really going on.
     
  15. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    Could it be possibly that the way real road is implemented that it counteracts tyre wear completely? Any loss of grip may be completely compensated for by the rubber on the road so if you stay on the racing line you may never notice any loss of traction? If this is the case then a little tweaking may be needed to get this right but as you say its just my assumption that tyres will get slower as they wear.

    My motec files above show the front tyres get to 100% worn at the end of session and I really can't see how that can be driven the same as a fresh set of rubber. Every form of racing I have ever seen they will always try and save fresh rubber for qualifying as this will give the best performance, but maybe these guys are just making an incorrect assumption regarding tyres too?

    Maybe I simply don't push hard enough but I haven't seen any times much faster even when I've raced online so I guess none of us are fast enough to notice the difference between a tyre worn 100% and fresh rubber. Don't get me wrong I think RF2 is easily the best sim I have driven but the lack of any tyre wear to me just made me assume it wasn't implemented yet.
     
  16. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    I did a couple of long runs at mid ohio in the F2 set tyre wear to 7x and ran 78 laps with 29AI on track (private session to avoid traffic and drafting) fuel off and had min 4 litres all the time. I will just mention the second run as this had the track at pretty much max rubber and wasn't getting any quicker from half way through the second run. I did 2 runs as I had damage on 100% and I had a spin that hit the wall to end my first run losing the front wing.

    I set my all time best lap with this car and track combination on lap 38 (simulated at lap 266 at 7x wear rate) of the run a 1:10.213 which is 2 tenths faster then my previous best lap. I was pushing pretty hard all session and could comfortably do high 1:10s pushing harder gets to mid 1:10s but less consistency due to lower margin of error in a couple breaking zones may get my worst lap to a 1:11.4 but the clean laps are all mid 1:10s. I could run more consistent lap times if needed by backing off about 5% but I wanted to see what my absolute 100% pace gets out of new and old rubber. Backing off I could run high 10s all day long it seems so there is zero tyre wear no matter how I look at this.

    It makes no difference how many laps I run and 7x tyre wear has as much effect as no tyre wear so it doesnt work and I think if you look at the data then try and run laps at this track with this car and setup from the setups thread you will see that I am pushing pretty hard. I think I have pretty much maxed out this setup with possibly a high 1:09 on a perfect lap with well rubbered track but 1:10.213 is not easy for me to beat unless some setup changes are made. Im sure some aliens could go a second faster but tyre wear is relative to all drivers and it should reduce grip levels to a point that will surely effect ultimate pace in a negative way. It doesnt have to fall of a cliff but like the difference between no rubber and full rubber can be 4-5 seconds surely tyre wear should be worth at least a second or 2 through the life of most race slicks and currently there is zero effect.

    If I can do that sort of lap with 7x tyre wear on the 38th lap of the session then surely tyre wear is not working as it should. No matter how good a tyre is it wont give 100% when 100% worn on the left front and this with 7x exaggerated wear rate.

    If you cant use lap times to compare tyre wear I dont see what you can, this is the ultimate benchmark in racing and so it should be in a sim. If you can set your all time best lap on completely worn rubber then why on earth would you ever need to change tyres?

    Here is the motec data from the session too.
    http://www.mediafire.com/?pgx9ebbnib2rejf
     
  17. Minibull

    Minibull Member

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    This is the one thing that got me confused in terms of comparing laptimes with other drivers. Someone said "everyones track conditions are different, wind, rubber laid, temperature, etc. It is hard to directly compare laptimes, always keep that in mind"

    While that is awesome of rFactor 2 to have all this dynamic track ability and makes for bloody great racing, a laptime is a laptime. If I go faster, I have gone faster. I don't get the reasoning that we can't compare the times. Y'know, like in real racing...
    The 800cc MotoGP records are being beaten by the new "up to 1000cc" bikes at some tracks, and not at other ones. They don't have to factor if the weather was bad or the track had been washed with rain before the race, etc. And in most cases, it doesn't matter about the displacement change either, they are the laptimes for this formula of bike racing. Just as the 500 2 strokes were compared to the 990 4 strokes, etc.

    Yes, the guys who are mad keen on getting their hotlaps in will crank everything they can to assist them. Whether it be higher/lower temps, letting the AI really rubber the track in, etc. But then the guys competing with them are probably doing the same....
     
  18. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    Like someone said just go do donuts and you will see, don't need to run 38 laps to know it.

    So we all agree it is not implemented proper as yet.

    I would save the " why on earth " for Gold. :)
     
  19. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    Lol id rather spend the time learning a car and track then just doing donuts though it would give the same results. Doing long runs is not easy even im my room with no G forces my arms do get a bit sore by the end of it.

    The why on earth is because Tim seems to think its working to a point but I just cant see it having any effect at all.

    I found this interesting website with great data on F1 races and it also has full lap time charts for each driver on every lap. This shows fuel burn and tyre wear but you need to take into account they are running optimal tyre strategies but I think looking at some tracks results are interesting.

    http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/07/29/2012-hungarian-grand-prix-fastest-laps/

    On high wear circuits you can clearly see a boost between the lap before pits and the lap after pits with new rubber yet similar fuel loads. At some tracks the ultimate pace doesnt change as much through the grand prix but fuel burn is worth around 4 seconds per race and the tyres degrading varies track to track. Some it goes down pretty linear with fuel burn but others with higher wear rates the tyres go away at much the same rate as fuel burn so pace doesnt improve as much during the race. Even here the track will be getting faster throughout the race so this is another variable but looking at these charts you can easily see the effect of tyre wear.

    Then when you take into account they are running the same setups they qualified in and compare that pace to the race pace on the last few laps you can get an idea of what the tyre degredation was after so many laps in the last stint. You also need to account for the track likely being faster at the end of the race then it was at the end of Q3 but also engine modes are normally turned up to max for qualy so there are still plenty of variables. But if there is no difference between running 200 laps or 2 laps I still would never pit for tyres unless it was mandatory for the race or due to weather conditions changing.
     
  20. Marek Lesniak

    Marek Lesniak Car Team Staff Member

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    Until he is just cruising around track, I wouldn't call that "driving below the limit". If you are racing, you just want to go as fast as possible (well, in most cases at least). What most of drivers does, is not keeping tyres in their optimal conditions (over driving them, in simple words). That makes them slower (more or less) compared to top drivers but also because of the same reason, tyre wear will be higher than could/should be. And that happens mostly in corners. You can brake a bit earlier and be in the safer zone and not lock tyres at all but I think most will try to go as fast through corners as possible.
     

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