Modders to team-up? How?

Discussion in 'Modding' started by Navigator, Feb 26, 2017.

  1. Navigator

    Navigator Registered

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    Hi guys,

    As a "physics guy" myself I am always curious how modders did their job and see if something is new.
    I'm talking about cars, but some sort of comparison might go up for tracks too.
    About 80%(!) of the cars (conversions mainly) I see here, are running stock rF1 physics:
    - no chassis file, just the old .pm
    - certainly no flex-chassis
    - no new steering system
    - no new engine file
    I mean; this is all rF1 stuff with -physics wise- just a few .tgm's added.

    Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to start a fight! I respect the fact that guys care enough about this stuff and publish it. I certainly don't want to bash them!
    However; this is rF2 and the physics side is so much wider/better now; its a shame that someone spends (a lot) of time to convert a mod, publish it and it still feels like you are playing rF1.

    The reason is probably (but correct me if you think/know otherwise) that physics are not the field of expertise of the modder. I can understand that; no one can do everything as it has become to complicated.

    This is where the problem is; "graphics-guys" and "physics-guys" (lets call it that for now) should find each other.
    I tried converting in the past and asked for help with the graphics/modelling side; most of the times its "very hard" to say the least.
    Then I open a similar mod that I've just downloaded here and find rF1 physics..........
    Well, you can understand what I think at that moment, right?

    One guy on the forum asking for help doesn't work in my opinion.
    It should more be a collaboration with two (or more) guys "going for that one mod" right from the start.
    Could even be that two guys agree to work on a mod that wasn't their first pick: "we now do your GT mod and later on my F1 mod". Stuff like that.

    But; how? I havent thought of a solution yet, but I'm brainstorming now ;)
    Thanks for reading!
     
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  2. gpfan

    gpfan Registered

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    Do you want to help me on Renault RS-01 physics?
     
  3. Navigator

    Navigator Registered

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    If you help finding a solution for the "problem" I described ;)

    But yeah, why not?
    I've had no permission for my latest conversion; the guy who originally made it, wanted a modding TEAM working on it. I can't help but thinking it has something to do with the starting post; he didn't want his mod to get published "medium-rare".
    So I do have some spare time.
     
  4. DaVeX

    DaVeX Registered

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    I'm not a modder but was thinking the same...
    I think the rF2 modders should "get in touch" each other, here on forum or discord and start a "plan" for rF2.
    As example, see the work done by Patick Giranthon on AMS, him with 3 guys released a bunch of converted tracks (23 and they will add more) updated to AMS which are great!
    People works on cars and they help each other (modders listening to users or implementing physics file done by other modders)
    Why something like this isn't happening here too?
    What stops you guys to form a new section of the forum just to bring up teams or share contents, ideas, etc?
     
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  5. gpfan

    gpfan Registered

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    You actually answer to your question/problem...... Modders have an agenda, sometimes it´s impossible to create synergy between them, main problem is when modders egos gets in the middle but the answer is communication, modders don´t communicate between each others often enough!

    Apart from that you have the studio lack of communication, ISI was a example of that.....
     
  6. Navigator

    Navigator Registered

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    No, the fact that I say "yes" does not mean everybody says yes every time.

    Yes, that why this topic........

    I don't know what this means; do you mean Studio 397 or me in this case?

    Now I know you just wanted to make your point, but asking me for help while you don't want/need it, is not something I appreciate.
     
  7. gpfan

    gpfan Registered

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    To be honest i was expecting a no...... :D:rolleyes:

    Was talking about ISI not Studio 397, it´s clear 397 wants this as bad as we......

    ..... but then you said yes..... yes it´s true... well both, my post was to try to prove my point but it also is a legit ask for help..... If your on to it i will appreciate your help ;)
     
  8. Navigator

    Navigator Registered

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    Gpfan and me had contact by pm.

    Lets go on in finding a solution for the "problem" mentioned in the first post; any ideas guys?
     
  9. Marcel Offermans

    Marcel Offermans Administrator Staff Member

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    Let me start by saying I like the original post and the constructive way in which @Navigator tries to find solutions to collaborate on mods. I personally have a long background in open source software development, and there are definitely some parallels between that and modding. I won't elaborate too much about those (unless someone is interested in it). What we are seeing though is that it takes many different disciplines to work together to create a car (or track) and that it is therefore usually not one person that builds all aspects.

    A good starting point would be to gather more people for each discipline. I do think that there are not that many people doing physics, but I do know a few. With the extensive spreadsheet, many example tyres that ISI in the past and now Studio 397 provides as well as the blog articles on the Brabham BT44B, I do think we are trying to help wherever we can and with a bit more collaboration, many new high quality mods can be created.

    What is important is to share as much information as possible, as it's one of the best ways for more and more people to learn about this. So it would be nice if other modders could also voice their opinion here!
     
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  10. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    Interesting that you are talking of "sharing information"!
    The BT44B-blog articles are surely a step forward, but what about sharing all knowledge of all values and possibilitys of rF2 modding in a complete and compact format somewhere? The big book of modding rF2 so to speak.
    What about better, easyer and more complete modding-tools?
    Why the community (of which some important people are banned here) have to create spreadsheets and little helper tools?
    Just now you are talking of things we should do, but how about S397 going in front as a good example?
     
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  11. DaVeX

    DaVeX Registered

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    why so rude?
    I think Marcell is trying to help here but he need to know which are the guys still working for rF2...this is the reason he asks your opinion, he want to help and improve your work even with your imputs...
     
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  12. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    Don´t meant to be rude. Just direct and honest.
     
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  13. blakboks

    blakboks Registered

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    Well, I think you hit the nail on the head in that each person has a thing that they're interested in doing, and they're not really that interested in doing the other part.

    Just within the past year, there's been a couple of websites/systems that I'm aware of that have been released that do similar to what you're talking about--bringing people together in a collaborative environment--artella.com and nimblecollective.com. They're geared more toward independent animation production, but I believe there's a few game projects on there as well. Also, historically, there's been ModDB.com, which has been a good way to get involved with mods for various games. However, those websites aren't doing any good without people who actually want to take the initiative to start something. How many times do you see people on these forums or elsewhere actually making an initiative to connect with others to collaborate? Occasionally you will, but it's not a regular thing.

    Personally, I think the barrier to entry is a view that it's difficult. However, I don't think that this is a barrier that can't be overcome. I think any resource that's available to help overcome this (i.e. learning resources) will mitigate these issues. The blog about the Brabham is a great step in this direction.

    I think part of the reason that so many people have migrated toward game engines like Unreal and Unity, is that there are tons of resources available to learn, and to go to with questions. Those game engines are infinitely more complex than creating a mod for rF2, too. However, they've got YouTube channels of their own and post interviews with the devs about upcoming features, answer questions, etc.; dedicated chats with 'experts'; their 'karma' system (Unreal) on the forums; in addition to numerous 3rd party resources and tutorials that are available. (It helps, too, that there're a lot more jobs available that require knowledge of those tools in particular)

    Allegorithmic, also, posts tutorials with regularity, and whenever they release a new version of their software, they have tutorials released at the same time that go over how to use the new features, or changes.

    Finally, yes, some of the tools do need to be improved to either make them more user-friendly, to streamline tedious tasks, or to just plain make them more stable/less buggy. From a models/textures/materials/lighting/etc. side, I think gJED could be a fantastic tool, but it needs to be developed a LOT further.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017
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  14. Boldaussie

    Boldaussie Registered

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    Interesting conversation. The largest problem faced is the skill set from rf1 and even early rf2 is becoming more and more limited, let alone the later developments within rf2.

    How many rf2 mods do modders here pull apart as such and see formula driven physics which in no way even attempts to emulate the real world suspensions as was done in the past. Even cars of a series having real world totally different inertia and engine configurations have almost identical physics applied to them. So Navigator is 100% correct. I am a real world suspension specialist ( not racing )

    Now rf2 has moved forward and the amount of basic tutorials is very limited. Knowledge gained via rf1, once common, is becoming scarcer to find online. There is an assumed expertise by the few who remain that attempt to explain concepts which, for some that may have an affinity for or an interest in may simply not understand the terminology initially and for the above reasons is a great turn off. Me as a case in point, have nearly cried enough several times in my efforts to learn.

    Useful tools that work with the later oprerating sytems are virtually non existent to scarce and if no ability to make your own, its becoming too hard in a time poor world. If the maker wants a modding community it has to put in place the means for there to be one. I have commented in other posts about ISI's spreadsheet being too labor intensive when there IS an easier way to get the information into it.

    Each area of modding is a specialized one now. Its only going to become more specialized as dx11, flex chassis, etc become more and more required. Maybe a situations vacant area in the modding section is feasable in the short term.
     
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  15. DaVeX

    DaVeX Registered

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    Step 1: new forum thread by Marcell (which need to be spread around) where modders sign up with name and area of interest, we need a list...(will be usefull for all of us, modders can search each other, who needs help will know who can help him, etc)
    Step 2: modders will be involved on DX11 switch and will have a specific space on TS/discord/whatever to work together and share their knowledge (maybe a private part of forum where they can share ideas, materials, props and content without risk to see it stolen).
    Step 3: S397 devs, 3D artists, coders, etc should be involved too...
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017
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  16. D.Painter

    D.Painter Registered

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    Would be great to see people team up on a project or a few. It's not like we don't see enough people of the needed talents here at times.
    Cause the hard part is to get those people on the same page. Wanting the same thing, (Series, car or track). The next thing is to get a great 3D modeller. This is one element were rF2 is lacking. The good ones are already in teams. The others want money for it. Up to $3000 USD. I kid you not!

    There are four main elements or skill sets to making a great mod.
    3D model. (Visual)
    2D textures (Visual)
    Sounds. Proven to be very important recently. But not news to me and others.
    Physics. What is being discussed here, now. To some the most important off all.

    Personally I have 2D guy and a great physics guy who worked with ISI for a time.
    We need 3D modeller and sound guy to make up a team.
    Have done for years. Issue is getting some one who wants to do what we want to do. There's so many cars and/or series out there that not all parties can come together on the same page.
    I have no interest in road cars. It's a racing Sim. So it's race cars for example.

    Then as mentioned above, The good old ego! A lot of people love feedback don't they, at least till it's a reality check and some one tells you the truth even when it hurts! All manner of crap comes out from all over the shop.

    Recently I personally totally criticized the crap out of that S397 released GT500. And I stand by it. The point is I was warned that I will be banned if I continued. Though I was only replying to others that quoted my post/answers. I found that funny, the ban warning didn't make me change my mind, it just got less reply's or quotes that needed answering. Went quiet on it's own.
    The funny thing was Enduracers release got over 27 pages of bad press, Did anyone get a ban warning on that thread? Not that I saw.
    I wasn't criticizing Enduracers and still wont.
    But crap is crap. Warning people isn't going to change that fact.

    Point is;
    Most can't stand the criticism. Wrong or right you need a thick skin and not react to conflict.
    I'm hard on poor graphics because that's the side I know best. I learned from my critics. Didn't fight or argue with anyone. Just moved forward and got better as I went over the years.
    How many can say the same? To many ego's here, that I know as fact.

    Bad graphics in rF2 is not totally the fault of the engine along.

    A thread post earlier.
    Asked if people would be interested in creating, joining a modding team based here on these forums. I thought it was a good idea.
    Funny, No replies. NOT surprised, but funny considering this thread now..
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017
  17. Marcel Offermans

    Marcel Offermans Administrator Staff Member

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    First of all, I don't mind you being direct, as long as you are constructive. To answer your comment on people being banned, that is being done for good reasons, and off-topic for this discussion so let's get back on track. Your basic feedback to us is that you think we should provide better and easier to use tools as well as better documentation. Well, I agree, but at the same time we have to balance that with all the other work we do, so answering questions, writing blogs, providing a library of tyres and releasing a lot of content that anybody can examine are the things we currently do, and will keep doing to help the community. I think you realize how much work it is, as you recently said in a different thread:

    "Well all of this is possible. But if you have to ask "How to alter engine/mass/aero..." I would forget about this.
    You have to have advanced modding-knowledge to do these things and I won´t give a full fletched modding-tutorial here."

    Source: https://forum.studio-397.com/index.php?threads/better-offline-experience.53449/#post-880348

    So I think we agree it's a big task, and it needs involvement from the whole community. So what could we as Studio 397 do to facilitate the community more? Are there technical barriers holding you back? Is it lack of knowledge in certain, specific areas? To be honest I'm convinced that if you look at the community as a whole, there is a lot of knowledge on rFactor 2. So how can we better share what we already know?
     
  18. Jokeri

    Jokeri Registered

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    In my mind that is just laziness. ISI provided a excellent tool for making those things and yet people are still trying to find more easier tools to use.

    Probably many are doing it.
    One mod states that it has chassis flex in it, well it has but the spring rates are such that it doesn't have any flex!
    One F1 mods chassis side suspension pickup points are so wrong that you can see it with naked eye when comparing it to a picture of the real car.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017
  19. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    I think I´ve answered those questions already in my earlyer post!
    As it is now, all this "community knowledge" is spread all over the world wide web. When I remember correctly I told something of a
    "complete/compact format" we need. So first and formost easyer access to this (and all other) infos. For all other questions, please read my post again.
    It is crystal-clear how much work that is what I and others asked for, especially for modders!
    You are the company that is responsible for the modding-platform named rFactor 2! You have payed stuff-members for this.
    (We) Modders just have our/theire spare time. And when most of this time goes down by searching for information all over the web and/or asking in forums (what isn´t always a success) then the motivation for doing things went down, or it takes massively longer to reach the goal.
    So if you really need "the whole community" to offer a proper documentation of your own product, I tell you this is really sad!
     
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  20. Nibiru

    Nibiru Registered

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    I wasn't going to reply because the OP at xmas said he would put a car in game but unfortunately got ill and backed out and now I'm doing it.

    As for modders working together I don't see or have experienced a problem. In my early days I tried to do everything myself but realised my weaknesses. Since then, and this is what I live by (where there is a will there is a way) I have actively asked other modders with the strengths I need to do some jobs. At the end of the day it's up to the modder or creator to ask for help to get his project finished the best you can.
    eg
    Barbagallo I knew I could make it look nice but couldn't get the AIW to work. So I contacted Hexagrame and asked him and he said sure.
    Same thing with Magnificent Park. I was having trouble with AIW so asked Hexagrame again and he found the problems but in the mean time showed SS some things so he nows works on my AIW.
    I am working on a few cars and I needed physics done. I asked Juergen if he would help. He did and went above and beyond what I asked.

    Now I'm not saying the above guys are the guys to ask or they will help you. But they helped me and most if not all will help. Yeah a place to say what type of modding you do or it could be just added to your user info under likes or something.

    So the modders do help each other even if it's not written in the forum. You just need to be pro active and ask.

    I do agree the modding information needs a look at. The wiki was a good idea but never finished. If that could get a real workover with all the info needed...look no further.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017
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