That is true, I remember some time ago Shadow Works guy used to race with us, he was building the Audi R8 for Project CARS (convertions allowed for any other game) and there were guys ready to convert it to GTR2 and AMS, but nobody for rF2 so I asked him why not get in touch with Apex, he asked if I could do it so I talked to yoss and then the partnership happened. I thought about getting into modding (physics) quite a lot of times but.. too much time to learn, too much time to finish something, didn't want to take a year to do something, then always the risk of a dev licensing what is being built and... no financial gains. I gave up all times I thought about it, I prefer to just drive
@Marcel Offermans just a thought, setting the modding discord channel to private mode might give the moders eventually more freedom for discussion, even tho it sounds the be the opposite. Or might even create specific sub channels for such discussions and leave the base channel open. People that are allready there should get the rest onboard. It has a big adavanage over the forum as you can have back and forth discussions in a shorter time frame IMO. Of course it wont and can't replace the forums completely. Use the provided tools by Michael. Stick to it and ask if parts are unclear. It will take a while to get around it. Once you are there you will realise the scope of it. It is as helpfull as it could get in rF2. I think there is still work being done on it and most likely it will improove and simplify further down the road regarding the workflow. Honestly a tool I would not want to miss anymore. And now knowing it is there I would not even bother doing anyhtign if it for whatever reasons would not be available anymore. It is that much of a game changer. Providing you know your way around the real cars for the most part. The required data for it you need anyways basically. With or without the tool. It is now well documented aswell and bet every single modder will learn with it something. It requires you to get fammiliar with it at the beginnign which can be owerwhelming at times but again it is worth it. When I started working with it I thougt it is a mess and not helpfull. Now it took me some time to get fammiliar with it and at first I did not really realise the advantages of it neither did I think it works propeprly. But having made the my way through it now I can just recommend every modder to use it even if you are a novice. It teaaches you a lot about physics and rF2 aswell. I'll just repeat, the tool is incredibly helpfull and timesaving. Use it.
Took me some time reading all this Thanks all for your thoughts and taking time to write them out. I don't want to have a go at why modders don't do (some) things; that not in the line of this topic. The ideas I read here: - Communication - Gather people of several disciplines - New forum “part” (closed) - better/more/better explained tools That's the short version Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the first three go hand in hand? Can we work that one out a bit more? I mean; solid ideas about a good setup for that? In my mind; this is a good direction........
To have "good" info well classified would be very good. Sometimes it's very hard to find useful info. To collaborate creating good content would be a different way to help together. I don't know if this should be a forum, wiki, etc (in any case i think that forums are not the best way to do this).
Cool project would be we create one car all together. Kinda skippy example from modders. We'd need to pick a car that has tons of available info published but nothing that goes in a extreem direction. At least regarding the physics. The rf2 calculator could be used and then weekly or monthly we work our way through it tab by tab or as required. Of course could be dokumented aswell propperly. But the approach or tools can be different aswell. We'd just need to agree on somehting. Really curious how that would work out.
Maybe you can rework the old fictional rF1 cars (rebuild them on physics and models) and tracks and bring them to 2017 standards...
Could for sure be a cool project @Miro but then the ego comes in when the group would get to large. At least that is what I think. Maybe it would be better to have real live data from a car and everybody interested in modding be it graphics guys or physics guys start with this project. Then make weekly or even two weekly sessions on discord or teamspeak or whatever and everybody shares what they run into and what questions they have. So we all learn from each other. I for example am a physics guys and work with the Michael Borda spreadsheet only. But like you stated it is very overwhelming when you first start using it. I'm involved in a running project and I was asked to look at aero but it took me quite a while to get my head around only the aero tab. It is a great tool but Michael Is so very busy that he isn't in a position to answer all our questions (no criticism) maybe we as enthusiasts can help and teach each other. Great thread @Navigator
That would be great Dave! Ever since this quick and dirty conversion of the Kodi by ISI came out, I thought of it tweaking this car to actual standards (including upgrade-options)! I would offer to make the sound and AI.
Ahem...as far as I know they have updated the physics and upgrades are there too (correct me if I am wrong)...but I appreciate your entuxiasm!Will be great! I am talking about the idea to rebuild them all, different shapes and new physics for each model... Something like this: 2005 Hammer (full bodied GT specs) > 2017 Hammer (Muscle Car Specs and shapes) 2005 Howston (full bodied GT specs) > 2017 Howston (GT3 Specs and shapes) 2005 Rayzor (Rally Turbo) > 2017 Rayzor (WTCC Specs and shapes) 2005 Rhez (Small FWD Sport Compact) > 2016 Rhez (Compact Roadster Specs and shapes) 2006 Rhez (Small FWD Sport Compact) > 2017 Rhez (FWD Sport Compact Specs and shapes) 2005 Venom (Rally specs) > 2017 Venom (4WD Rally specs and shapes) 2005 ZR (High Performance Sedan) > 2017 ZR (Drift Car Specs and shapes) Basically modders needs data taken from real cars even if modeller will give them fictional and different shapes from the originals... Same for the traks, ISI released a couple of old tracks remasterd which are good to race...so why not the other ones?
I did try some quick and dirty conversions of the Rhez and Rayzor. But don't know enough to make them properly rF2 cars.
I love the rayzor... Btw, back on topic, where are all the modders? S397 wants to hear your opinions guys!!!
Well I would rather preffer to start wiht something from 0. That would make sure we really deal with all the available options. Also picking a somewhat popular car that getts driven regulary by users might be of advantage for additional updates down the road. We probably should just start by giving examples or suggestions where data is really available and then at some point vote for one of them. As for the model 3d stuff and textures. Not my topic, don't know much about it. I don't mind whatever it is.
I don't know S397's perspective on this, but might it be a decent idea to look at the licenses ISI/397 have, but haven't yet been able to act on? https://forum.studio-397.com/index.php?threads/upcoming-isi-content-list.35912/ "It's an older list, sir, but it checks out"
Yes yes, upgrades are there, I know. I´m not sure by now if they implemented the latest physics-tech in there. Most work has to be made on the graphical side for sure...
The way I see it is that the developer's job is to provide the base level tools and guides. After that it is the job of the community to use those guides and tools to push the limits of the software. But it is not an additive process. It is a multiplicative process. If the dev does x then the community does 2x. If the developer's x is very small then no matter how much work the community puts into the game the actual community output is still very small. The more the developer relies on the community to explain the most basic things the less the basic things are explained simply because the barrier of entry becomes too big for everybody except the most advanced modders to get through it. It can be vicious circle if you don't have the documentation and don't get the critical mass. If the people leave the information dies. The less people you have the more it hurts when you lose even one member of your community. And people come and go all the time. Nobody is a modder forever. Good tools and documentation are also the best way to deal with people coming and going as well. It keeps the information available for everyone. Not just for new members but for those who later want to come back. My point is the better the guides and the tools are the better the content that comes out. I think rf2 modding should be accessible to everyone who wants to learn it. The lower the barrier for entry the more people there are to form modding teams. It is absolutely crucial for a modding platform. This is not just about quality but quantity as well. I know that I mention this in literally every post I make but I would not do it unless I didn't think it is massively important aspect to improve for rf2. Especially considering that my path to modelling started literally from 0 to make a car for ac. Without good guides it could not happen. And it could not happen with rf2 because the tools and documentation is just not up to the par. They are really poor. But with improvements I think the benefits here are potentially massive. But it is not the job of the community to fix this. Modding is something where you have to be able to deal with certain levels of frustration. It is definetely not happyhappy joyjoy all the time. There are many things in the modelling pipeline that are not fun. Nobody likes uvmapping and it still takes a long time to do it for example. But at the same time it can be really rewarding and fun. It is just awesome you can pick a car and some time later drive it in the sim. But the less documentation there is and the more poor the tools are the more frustrating and less fun it becomes. The more time it takes to solve pointless issues the more certain is the fact that any enthusiasm that a modder had at the start of his project is lost. And even with good documentation not many mods are finished.
Sounds to me like there might be some value in having some volunteer or remunerated documenters? I guess they would have to be part of the inner circle to understood stuff before they could write the documentation? Documenting may not help if each time a vehicle is produced the coding is slightly different or the modding evolves to incorporate new elements? Documenting isn't as fun(having done ISO documentation in a past life) as modding and driving, but if broken into smaller bites with knowledgeable "reviewers" to vet the output, it might be more doable. What's in it for the documenter? The object of the exercise should be for Studio397 to make some money at this. So what drives sales and how can the community do stuff that increases sales? More cars, more tracks, driving schools, telemetry to setup training, documentation, stock components(Studio 397 tyres sets etc.)....? How any supplementary support can be successful without guidance and alignment would seem a bit of a mystery?
