Latest Roadmap Update - March 2018!!!

Discussion in 'News & Notifications' started by Christopher Elliott, Mar 31, 2018.

  1. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    People have bought the Kartsim mod and talked about how good it is to have laser scanned tracks, despite the fact they'll probably never drive the track in real life (and even if they eventually do, the surface details will probably have changed by then). So, again, a detailed (but not laser scanned) track would do just as good a job for those people.

    A flat track with no surface details is definitely lacking, but non-laser tracks don't have to be like that. It's annoying when people basically dismiss a track because it's not laser scanned. Marketers love those people, because a clever label can make all the difference.
     
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  2. DrivingFast

    DrivingFast Registered

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    Do I say the opposite ?

    And as far as I'm concerned, comparing the 3 tracks of Kartsim with Dallas/Atlanta/Genk/Quebec etc. I immediately saw a significant difference : there are many more irregularities on the track, which is pleasant and very convincing.

    But the semi-fictional tracks are less detailed because the modders/ISI/S397 have done them like that.

    It is clear to me that the best track in the world on a simulation is a track not yet invented, totally fictional, made by a modder passionate about driving and therefore concerned with infinite detail and maximizing piloting situations, by a modder extremely talented and more geared towards driving than necessarily beautiful graphics or other.

    But dear Lazza, you misunderstood me.

    Do not tell me on the other hand that the association : Kart does with real data by a modder using perfectly this data associated with 3 scanned laser tracks which obviously the data were perfectly exploited without erasing too much detail is not a total success.

    If we lived in an ideal world, all quality modders (we know them) would use this kind of methodology based on factual data. But acquiring this data is complicated and expensive.

    Outstanding quality modders do it..... the work of SLOWMOTION/Marco is extremely impressive from my point of view (real data, sense of detail / engineer / real drivers etc. I respect a lot there methods)

    Everyone does with the possibilities/data available to him.

    EDIT :
    But do not tell me that, in an ideal world in 2018, the best basis of work for a serious modder is not the real data (car and real circuit) ...

    The basis of realism is to start from real data, knowing that this is only the first part of the work and that the modder must be of quality to do a good job then.
    In an ideal world where it would be easy and free to obtain precise data.

    If you do not agree on this point, it is useless to give me other arguments, because you will never convince me on this subject.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  3. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @DrivingFast No, although I used your post as a starter for mine, it doesn't mean I'm trying to say you're wrong about something.
     
  4. DrivingFast

    DrivingFast Registered

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    Ok.
     
  5. Louis

    Louis Registered

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    Lets say SLOWMOTION got the data of laserscanned Spa. Lets say that he already modded Spa but now wants to mod again but this time using laserscanned data.
    Which one you would choose?
    The outstanding track with fake bumps or the outstanding track with the exactly surface of some iconic track?
    How much time he could save with this data on his hands and work in better performance and visuals?
     
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  6. Sebastien Sestacq

    Sebastien Sestacq Registered

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    I think we all agree races and endurance series are the strong point of rf2,
    the WEC license is my opinion out of range given the stables I can not imagine the price!
    on the other hand there are other fields endu maybe more realistic, once again I specify nothing to know at the price of car or championship licenses!
    ELMS/ALMS, Open GT, IMSA, VdeV, etc...not to mention the historic championship!
    personally I think the priority and online matchmaking is probably the hardest to implement but the most urgent!!
    all the series of "Rookies" until "Pro" are already there !!
    they can be more varied than iracing with a motivating "career" system to climb the online competition ladder!
    around me a lot are on iracing just for the matchmaking they are just waiting for the same thing on rf2 to get back on it!
    I know that I push open doors and that S397 does not need me to know
    but personally I would put 100% of the squad on matchmaking competition / UI
    and after I would complete the current series to make the championships, GT3, FE (just tracks), Proto, and track known as Sebring, SPA, Le Mans, etc.

    Here is my point of view ;)
     
  7. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    good laser tracks totally rock
    There’s no comparison

    Makes zero difference if one intends to drive the real life version or not
    The quality of a good laser track is light years ahead

    With the genuine respect to those that currently don’t believe so -you will in time I’m sure
    If you’ve not practiced on quality lasered tracks then I understand you’ll know no different

    The Sim racing community expect laser tracks now & have done pretty much since 2015 ( apart from some users of rf2 & automobilsta that know no different )
     
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  8. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    im not so sure there Adrian. Ive played a few in AC and the like and its not like theres a huge mountain of difference - ok some tracks aren't that great, but well put together ones aren't that far off. If its a case of 1 Scanned track or 2-3 well done tracks, give me more non scanned.

    I seem to think the need for VR has overtaken the need for scanned tracks!

    Laser scanned tracks are overrated!
     
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  9. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    The only thing I like about laser scanned tracks is the corners and track boundary’s,so when you use the same track in different sims,the corners are all familiar.
    I’m not that fussed about the surface detail really,as long as they aren’t flat and lifeless,or over done with bumps,unless of course they are supposed to be that way.

    A great mod track is on par with laser scanned if the layout is close to each other,imho,there are some where elevations are overdone,but even then that adds a new challenge.

    I’m fine with any well made track,as long as it is,well,well made.

    I was an iracer before going to other sims,so all I knew was laser scanned tracks.

    I’d rather race on a mod made monico than no monico at all

    Oh and of course you then have repaves etc which render the whole point of laser scanning mute,because devs are reluctant to re scan or re purchase the updated data so you end up with an outdated tracks Ala iracing

    This argument will last for ever,so the bet solution is to have dev made non laser,mod made non laser but also dev made laser scanned tracks,caters to Everyone and every track then.

    Ala rf2
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
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  10. Louis

    Louis Registered

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    I think the problem is people comparing poorly optmized laser scanned tracks (sometimes just conversions from other games) with top modders works without laserscanned data
    Pick any modder (from the begginers to the top team) in the world and ask to him to make the same track 2 times. One with laserscanned data one without.
    10/10 times the laser scanned version will be the choosen one
    Think about time used to research data about some track particularities, elevation changes, etc and imagine this worktime being used to optimize performance and visuals...
     
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  11. caravan_driver

    caravan_driver Registered

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    When the Kartsims released I immeadiately felt all the "awesomeness" of the laser scan.
    I could ride kerbs without any fear and the FFB was different from the old ISI karts.

    ...Then I ran the Kartsim on ISIs old Quebec track and realized the difference was the kart :D.

    But a non laser scan track feels like a lot of finger prints on a blu-ray.
    It makes you really anxious :D.
     
  12. stonec

    stonec Member

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    Nah, the sim racing community expects quality tracks. That's it. Kunos released Zandvoort a year or two ago without laser scan and it took a while before anyone even noticed it, only when they were told it was not laser scanned did the complaints start.

    Presumably Botniaring and these smaller tracks are all for free or at least I'd be very surprised if they put a random track that nobody knows about as DLC. S397 is among the only sim studios left that produce any content at all for free. Free content like Botniaring or Zandvoort naturally will not be laser scanned, that's an economical impossibility.
     
  13. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    It was hilarious when this happened, the track went from best ever for weeks to trash in 10 seconds because people were told it was not laser scan. :D
     
  14. DrivingFast

    DrivingFast Registered

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    I'm really surprised when I read this stuff :

    Contrast Immersion (here VR) VS Realism (here real tracks with real data tracks), and conclude that we have a preference/priority for immersion in the face of realism
    .......

    I have a hard time understanding.

    Why choose the only "hardcore simulation", while all other simulations do better in terms of immersion/ergonomics/stability-bugs/performance ... why bother ?

    And yes RF2 improves a little on these areas after 5-6 years.
     
  15. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    I was about to say exactly the same thing. Zandvoort came out and everyone was raving about how good it was. Then they said it wasn't laser scanned and suddenly it became a pile of horse dung.

    They believed it was laser scanned until told otherwise. The addon Donnington for AC is the same: Not laser scanned, but you'd be certain it was.

    So you're saying those who don't think laser scanning is the absolute best are idiots? Many of us have driven the laser scanned tracks of iRacing and AC.

    The laser scanned tracks in KartSim could have been done by a top modder.
     
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  16. Navigator

    Navigator Registered

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    Funny that this topic also results in a discussion about laser scanned or not. "To scan or not to scan?"

    Something else on that matter; the track can be perfect (scanned or not) but in order to feel everything like it should be.....the CAR has to be exactly like the real thing; every movement, every component strength, every play or lack thereof, every mounting, every millimeter of length, width and position, every spring rate, every shock rate, every torsion parameter, every degree of turn in all directions and I can go on for hours.
    If thats not right; the perfect track still doesn't feel like it should do in that particular car.

    And than -as I said before- people drive "helicopter view", assist all on, no fuel consumption, no tire degradation, little track in the corner to see where they are going, "driving line" on and steering with a keyboard :)
    They MUST have laser scanned because it is so real, but drive like that........ (not all, I know, but the biggest shouters probably most)
     
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  17. Stefan_L_01

    Stefan_L_01 Registered

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    I bet you can build in a real car 2 different spring/damper from 2 differernt manufactor, and set them to same spec, and the car will feel different. It´s an illusion that you just need same numbers to get same behaviour, and it´s ridicolous to believe that some coarse numbers which are entered in a sim model which match some real numbers will result in a somewhat same behaviour.
    Unless we talk about easy stuff like engine power, gear and topspeed.
    Usually modelling goes the other way around anyway: You have a recorded a real situation and you tweak your model numbers so long until you reach the measured and recorded state. The problem: You reach ONE state, that does not mean that your model will work out another recorded 2nd state in different situation in same exactness.
    Complex aerodynamics are not simulated anyway. Full structural deformation of any mechanical part? Forget about it. Tire deformation? Yes something is calculated, is the result somewhat real? Noone knows.
     
  18. Jka

    Jka Member Staff Member

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    Not laser scanned, but next best thing. Land survey report accuracy is less than 1 cm on every axis.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
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  19. Navigator

    Navigator Registered

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    I completely agree with you mate.
    But thats my whole point; the car can't be 100% exact in game. So whats the point in a perfect track if the car is not right? "As close as possible" is the best thing and changing dampers will make the car feel different, but in game it will need more adjusting; softening them will probably have a different effect.

    So; the car has to be perfect too in order to get the perfect feel on a perfect track ;)
     
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  20. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    See? We've gone full circle back to GPL. The project that started 'realism.' There were folks who lauded GPL's never seen before car accuracy, yet drove as if flying behind the car suspended by some kite. I have never driven on a laser scanned track, but I can understand the benefits. I have seen many versions of tracks over the years and can easily feel the ones that are superior. But I do not KNOW if I would recognize a laser scanned track just by driving it. I won't sit here now, and say Bot the Ring is crap or Kylie's Lhama is Shite.. I will drive them, in a car that may be accurate but one I've grown familiar with and use my senses to judge the quality. Not some label placed upon the product prior to my ever experiencing it. The latest VIR is not scanned,(that I am aware of anyway) but very very enjoyable due to both the actual track and the skill of the providers. You can tell me there is a better VIR out there, but if I can't access it then it's just El Dorado lying somewhere over the unreachable horizon. I'll take and hopefully enjoy what I can. I won't disparaged the efforts of those who brought it to me. I joined rF2 users very late after a long dive into GTR2, but I came when big changes began happening. I am forever mystified that the progress made is NEVER enough especially when MORE PROGRESS is announced and being worked on. For those who insist ONLY on laser scanned tracks, I see your point and hope you find much much enjoyment at Sebring and only Sebring until another effort surfaces.
     
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