Karts 0.991 and Quebec SuperKarts 1.07 track available

I'm quite easily beating the AI at 110% , I'm averaging mid 40 lap times. I don't think assists should help consistent driving, consistent driving should help with that by itself. :p

I was a 3 time local club champion, raced nationally, as well as club champion in a few other places, so that probably helps with it. All the same principles carry over, but nothing can bring back the seat of the pants feeling that you get in reality. I think if I had that I'd be able to shave another few seconds off.

@ woodee, those karts at Buckmore will be quite a bit heavier than proper karts. They'll probably carry more fuel, and their tires won't be so well taken care of as a proper kart. They might have rubber track rods too instead of metal ones, and that changes the way the steering feels quite a lot in my opinion. But again, same principles of driving will carry over. Being smooth and carrying your speed is the most important thing. Also, if they're using Honda engines they'll be 4 strokes instead of the Rotax 2 stroke ISI have modelled.
 
Twista said:
I'm quite easily beating the AI at 110% , I'm averaging mid 40 lap times. I don't think assists should help consistent driving, consistent driving should help with that by itself. :p

I was a 3 time local club champion, raced nationally, as well as club champion in a few other places, so that probably helps with it. All the same principles carry over, but nothing can bring back the seat of the pants feeling that you get in reality. I think if I had that I'd be able to shave another few seconds off.

@ woodee, those karts at Buckmore will be quite a bit heavier than proper karts. They'll probably carry more fuel, and their tires won't be so well taken care of as a proper kart. They might have rubber track rods too instead of metal ones, and that changes the way the steering feels quite a lot in my opinion. But again, same principles of driving will carry over. Being smooth and carrying your speed is the most important thing. Also, if they're using Honda engines they'll be 4 strokes instead of the Rotax 2 stroke ISI have modelled.
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Ah right thanks for the info... I obviously have never stepped in a racing machine, just the "arrive and drive" karts at 2 local circuits. As i'd imagine with all the extra faring and parts not being too lightweight they would differ quite dramatically in weight. But the same driving principles would apply to both.

I am liking the sound of the 2 stroke engines rumbling away behind me :)
 
Spinelli said:
Normally I would think it's just a case of our real life wheel's speed/acceleration/reaction time simply not being able to keep up with the super quick kart dynamics, but I'm pretty sure it's not just that as I've seen/experienced this unnatural and overly tricky oversteer-correction behavior in slower cars too, and going back from even before RFactor 1.
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I have quite similar thoughts about this issue with karts but starting to believe it's mainly because of input lag. I mean even though our systems have very low input lag, 120 Hz refresh rate and LightBoost 2D hacks but it may still not be good enough compared to real-life because like you said karts have these super quick dynamics (unlike any other vehicle in rF2) so the input lag effect should feel amplified. Of course tire contact patch model may not be fully finished yet (could it ever be?) so I believe it probably has some role in this issue too and who knows maybe could explain your experiences with rF1 or other cars together with input lag effect.

But don't get me wrong - I love ISI karts! These tiny beasts are freaking awesome! So annoyingly impossible to put a perfect lap but at the same time so much fun trying to. :) Huge sensation of speed and VERY believable vehicle dynamics (at least to my limited experience with real-life karts). This sim is soooo good even with it's imperfections but hey that's life - you can't have everything. Anyways one helluva happy customer here taking of his hat and making a deep bow.
 
Paul Loatman said:
My speed sensitivity is at 0, steering sensitivity is at 100%, and steering lock is set by car. Not only that, but i can almost guarantee that my FFB settings are more realistic than what most people are using.

I can just about keep up with the AI at 110% consistently in the F1 karts through any of the Quebec layouts, but still, it doesn't feel realistic in some instances. I never experienced this level of twitchiness in a real kart back in the day. I'm not saying it's completely wrong, i just think it's a bit exaggerated, it just feels like there's too much grip or something is off with the rear end. The twitchiness, in my opinion, should still be there, but the kart shouldn't suddenly be able to change directions like it does in rF2, it should have a bit of "looseness" to it, rather than suddenly changing direction. Possibly this is an issue with real-road? I know it's not finished and rubber builds up faster than it should, so maybe it's just adding way too much grip on the road.
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Regarding real road, yes, I think so. Everyone having this issue should just temporarily change their setting to green track and no build-up to see the difference.
 
Twista said:
Where did you get the helmet and suit templates? I'd love to add my own helmet to the sim.
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There are topics on this forum, somewhere, to download them. I had to search around but they're together :).
 
Woodee said:
I still reckon the driver looks a little tense in the seat, she should be a bit looser and curved in his seating position, a little hunched.
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Not everyone drives hunched up, when I got out of cadet class and into junior classes I started sitting really rigid in the kart, not sure why. I think the main problem is that the driver is just a bit too tall, especially compared to the seat.
 
I even think it might even cost you if you're driving hunched up (had to google translate that part ;) ). All it does is making sure that you get less of your back against the seat, so your body has a smaller contact patch with the kart, which reduces (IMO) the feeling for the kart. You want to be one with the kart as much as possible. Even if you feel something just 0.001 quicker it will help, because if you correct earlier, the kart won't be as much out of shape, so you have to correct less.

Lot's of people on this forum have talked about the 'Seat of Pants' thing, so I think that this makes sense a bit, doesn't it??? :p For me, when karting, it is also how I drive, really resting my back against the back of the seat. And besides the point above, I find it a more relaxed/comfortable position, thus making it easier to concentrate.
 
Paul Loatman said:
I think it's usually due to the Kart itself, isn't it? I've been told by people who race karts that they have to have the seat position in a very particular way (usually determined by the manufacturer) in order to get a good pace, and that's often not a comfortable seating position, but it's better to be fast and a bit uncomfortable than comfortable and slow.
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I think it's personal preference more than anything else. As I started driving bigger, more powerful karts, I found myself stiffening up my shoulders. You can actually see a pretty big difference in photos of me in terms of how I sit in a kart between cadets and junior TKM. It's similar to tucking on straights, it's sort of a negligible gain, but if it makes you feel faster, you do it anyway.
The bulk of my racing time was in cadets, maybe in the higher classes it's a far bigger deal.

In other news, I added my helmet. I'm super happy with it. :D

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KeiKei said:
I have quite similar thoughts about this issue with karts but starting to believe it's mainly because of input lag. I mean even though our systems have very low input lag, 120 Hz refresh rate and LightBoost 2D hacks but it may still not be good enough compared to real-life because like you said karts have these super quick dynamics (unlike any other vehicle in rF2) so the input lag effect should feel amplified. Of course tire contact patch model may not be fully finished yet (could it ever be?) so I believe it probably has some role in this issue too and who knows maybe could explain your experiences with rF1 or other cars together with input lag effect.
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I dont know...

I just did some testing with the old classic open wheeler F3 doing slides coming out of the final turn at Monaco, and catching the initial slide is just fine but then the "return to centre" part is just way overly snappy. Even in the replay it just looks way too overly aggresive and "off". It looks like instead of the rear of the car being returned to centre, instead, the front of the car simlply just wants to snap steer to the other direction. It's almost as if the rotation axis point is not happening from the rear, but from the front. I've always felt this "front axis rotation point" in ISI based engine sims, especially the bigger your oversteer moment is. It feels more as if the front of the car is just simply turning sharply and the momentum along with it (with some rear slip), rather than the rear end trying to swing around while most of the vehicles momentum is still continuing to go forward. It makes the car look like it's doing a very sharp turn rather than a rear powerslide.

Overall I think RF2 has the best dynamics and is my #1 sim (even though I play and enjoy more than 1), however I still feel like this is one of ISI's main physics issues (like I said thouhg, overall I still think it's the best).
 
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Spinelli said:
I dont know, I just did some testing with the old classic open wheeler F3 doing slides coming out of the final turn at Monaco at catching the initial slide just fine but then the "return to centre" part is just way overly snappy. Even in the replay it just looks way too overly aggresive and "off". It looks like instead of the rear of the car being returned to centre, instead the front of the car simlply just wants to snap steer to the other direction as if there. It's almost as if the rotation axis point is not happening from the rear, but from the front. I've always felt this "front axis rotation point" in ISI based engine sims, especially the bigger your oversteer moment is. It feels more as if the front of the car is just simply turning sharply and the momentum along with it with some rear slip, rather than the rear end trying to swing around while most of the vehicles momentum is still continuing to go forward. It makes the car look like it's doing a very sharp turn rather than a rear powersliding. Overall I think RF2 has the best dynamics and is my #1 sim (even though I play and enjoy more than 1), however I still feel like this is one of ISI's main physics issues (like I said thouh overall I still think it's the best).
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I concur with this analysis. It's the only "flaw" in rF2 physics that I can detect consistently across all vehicles, including cars that are mods based on ISI vehicles. And it's really the only flaw at all if I think about it.

I have never been sure if it's the pivot issue, or just a systemic lack of grip or something at the rear of the cars. Your explanation is a better articulation than I have been able to come up with ;)
 
Paul, not my experience at all. The junior kart I drive in rF2 reacts and responds just like the one in the video. A subtle controlled slide is not the fastest way through a corner...driving on the knife-edge of grip is the fastest way. All I can tell you is my steering wheel moves an awful lot like the one in the video--requiring corrections to prevent over-steer one moment and then the opposite later to prevent bogging and under-steer (although there aren't any tight corners on the track in the video, compared to ISI Quebec track...but it still looks like a great track!).
 
From what I remember in the karts... most of the feeing came from my backside, the fact you can't get that in a sim car under normal circumstances makes it difficult to judge against real life.

The similarity I do find is when I take a corner too the wheels/kart will hop. I have experienced this in a normal kart, ending all my momentum which takes a while to regain. Karts have a LOT of grip but only in a straight line, they don't react well to being chucked around. But I would have expected a bit more controllable slip on a damp track. I can't wait to get back into a real kart again! Any simracers near Buckmore Park? :D
 
At high speed, and the sweepers in Quebec the kart handles pretty accurately, I'd say through the tight hairpin on the 3rd layout the kart bogs down and the tyres scrub too much. It's just too hard to consistently keep in control.

This is just from experience though, I initially thought they drove perfectly but the more I drive them the more things I'm noticing.
 
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