Karts 0.991 and Quebec SuperKarts 1.07 track available

Twista said:
I'd say through the tight hairpin on the 3rd layout the kart bogs down and the tyres scrub too much. It's just too hard to consistently keep in control.
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The rF2 karts simulate the scrubbing and bogging down thing amazingly realistic in my opinion.

I think the rF2 karts are one of the best sim cars ever made, for any sim.
 
Spinelli said:
The rF2 karts simulate the scrubbing and bogging down thing amazingly realistic in my opinion.

I think the rF2 karts are one of the best sim cars ever made, for any sim.
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I'm not saying the physicality of it isn't great, but I do think it's just a little too much. My local circuit has two hairpins with similar radius to the one in Quebec, and I can't say my kart ever scrubbed or bogged the way it does in sim. I'm not saying it didn't do it at all, it was just never so extreme.
 
Twista said:
I'm not saying the physicality of it isn't great, but I do think it's just a little too much. My local circuit has two hairpins with similar radius to the one in Quebec, and I can't say my kart ever scrubbed or bogged the way it does in sim. I'm not saying it didn't do it at all, it was just never so extreme.
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Even the track day karts I rode in bogged down and they were dual 175cc I think (not racing engines of course). I am not sure whether a 125cc racing kart would bog down this much... I remember seeing vids of people bumping up and down in the karts to try and get them to go faster from a bogged down state :)

Pity there is music over the top.

See the grip? See the hopping?

 
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Woodee said:
Even the track day karts I rode in bogged down and they were dual 175cc I think (not racing engines of course). I am not sure whether a 125cc racing kart would bog down this much... I remember seeing vids of people bumping up and down in the karts to try and get them to go faster from a bogged down state :)
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Yeah, I was never saying that karts don't bog down, I just think it's easier to carry speed through slow corners in reality than it is in sim, and when I've tried to figure out why it might be, it's because of the way the tires scrub.

Bumping up and down surprisingly works. I've instinctually done it a few times at Quebec! ;)
 
Twista said:
Yeah, I was never saying that karts don't bog down, I just think it's easier to carry speed through slow corners in reality than it is in sim, and when I've tried to figure out why it might be, it's because of the way the tires scrub.

Bumping up and down surprisingly works. I've instinctually done it a few times at Quebec! ;)
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I wasn't disagreeing, there are far better people with more knowledge on these real life karts than me anyhow :)
 
You can drive the karts consiently without overscrubbing and overbogging, I think it's just a feel thing regarding car feedback in real-life compared to a sim, ffb, and also speed feeling. I feel like I am stopped when I go 30 km/h in the pits, where as in real life you can definitely feel the speed, bumps, vibrations, car feedback, etc. even at 30 km/h.
 
Hello, I unzipped and extracted the file from the mass ddds, I painted and so I called pmgl_1althelmet.dds and not charge me. What if I managed to paint the suit was the pilot.
 
Paul Loatman said:
Something that came to my mind when i was thinking about these karts is a car from another racing game; the Lancia Stratos in GT6. I have a video which i hope is alright to post (personally, i don't think GT6 is marketed to the same people as what rF2 should be anyways). The behavior of this car is incredibly close to driving a kart in real life when you have all the settings as realistic as possible, i was absolutely blown away when i tried this for the first time. Just look at the video and compare it to the behavior of the Rotax Kart. In some important ways, this Stratos feels more like a real kart than the rF2 karts.
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I personally do not agree. The sliding, correcting, weight transfer, and just overall handling dyanmics in that GT6 Lancia video are much too slow, too smooth, too "weighty" and smooth for a real-life kart. However I do love the video, and your driving :)
 
Paul Loatman said:
Have you actually driven the Lancia in GT6? There were more than a few threads on a different forum where people were complaining that the car would spin too suddenly and catching slides required very quick reactions, people were basically saying that it was not smooth enough. Part of the reason why i made that video was to demonstrate that it could be driven consistently if you knew how. Honestly, that car probably has much more grip than what you would have realistically with road tires in the real world, in GT6, that car with comfort soft's is more like racing slicks in the real world. So in real life, the car would slide even more and look even "smoother" if driven quickly.

I should also mention that i've driven both an original Lancia Stratos Stradale, and a Hawks kit car that replicates the HF version. Both were on semi racing tires and i didn't drive the original very fast (for obvious reasons) but the HF felt like it had less grip than the GT6 car, although that's obviously hard to determine between the two.
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No never had the privilege of driving one, I don't even think I've seen one in real life. However I have driven real karts, 2 different Rotax Max on 2 different tracks, and a total of 4 different track layouts, also the regular "public" karts that most of us have tried. I have also worked at a racetrack and pretty much lived at one for about a year. We had weekends where big karting events took place. All sorts of categories. 125 CC rotax, shifters, guys from all across Canada and even U.S.A. I believe. The RF2 karts are amazingly close. The Lancia in your video looks like it handles like a lightweight, twitchy, short wheelbase car (like it most likely is supposed to) being driven hard to it's limits, yes definitely....however it is not behaving like a kart. The RF2 handling dynamics are much, MUCH closer to a real kart than the Lancia in that video.

I believe that the only stand-out thing "off" with the karts is that it's sometimes too easy to overcorrect and snap the other way (could be down to FFB/hardware latency/lag and lack of feel sitting behind a desk, but maybe a bit to due with the physics engine as well which I believe to be part of the issue), and maybe the rear should allow us to hold a rear slide/drift just a tiny bit longer before having to be snap corrected. Overall though it is one of the closest representations of a real-life car I have ever experienced in any sim.

If you look at how the top drivers in rF2 drive and lap it and then see how real drivers do in the top series it is scarily similar, from braking, to corner entry, turn in, mid corner, exit, snap slides, spins, bogging, bumps on entry, bumps mid corner, bumps under acceleration, being over aggressive with the turn-in, sliding wide and then regaining front grip, everything.

All I can think of "off" with it is just a bit more controllable rear-slip needed, in specifically the following 2 areas:
1. being able to hold the drift/slip angle for a fraction of a second longer during braking and entry before having to be snap-corrected
2. overall rear-correction not being so prone to overly-snappy (even for a kart) over-correction

These are 2 specific areas of rear-end handling dynamics that are extremely difficult to get just perfect WITHOUT actually compromising/"dumbing-down"/simplifying the overall handling model. Also it's always hard to say how much of it is due to actual physics and how much of it is due to FFB/hardware latency/lag + not being able to directly feel the car underneath you.
 
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Sorry Paul, I guess I just misunderstood you. Ya you're right, we're probably describing the same thing.

Maybe it's not that they have too much grip though, but more of HOW the tyres regain that lost grip during different slip percentages, slip angles in combination with how much forward speed they are carrying. Because when they are not sliding then the actual grip does not seem overly high at all, so I don't think it's too much all-out grip, but more to do with how it transitions from different grip/slip percentages and states. Maybe after the initial breakaway slide, once you catch and hold the slide, maybe then the tyres just regain their full-on grip just slightly too quickly? Maybe it has to do with the rotation axis point which sometimes feels like it is too forward in ISI based sims (going back to even before RFactor 1, however it has thankfully continued to improve more and more including in rF2). I explained this a bit further in post #323 of this same thread.


You have to admit though, we are criticizing a sim-car that is probably one of the best sim-cars of all time on any sim-game / sim-engine.

I also think the amazingness of the rF2 kart has something to do with the fact that ISI has a brand new FFB model for the karts which is supposed to be even more realistic/better than what the other cars use. I find it AMAZING that this wasn't mentioned much and given more attention from ISI, I think it was just one little sentence buried in the release notes. Apart from pure physics, FFB is BY FAR the 2nd most important part of a sim. Also, I have a feeling it is more than just FFB because Tim said that he wasn't sure if the other cars could be quickly converted to this new FFB model; that indicates to me that it's not just FFB, but rather something in the physics modelling which then "connects" to the FFB. The rF2 kart feels like a leap forward even from the rF2 Panoz and Civic in my opinion. There may be some great new developments that ISI are doing with regards to physics and FFB, and maybe they have first introduced these new developments to us in the form of the karts.
 
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"There may be some great new developments that ISI are doing with regards to physics and FFB, and maybe they have first introduced these new developments to us in the form of the karts."

That's very interesting! I'd like to hear from Tim about it...
 
Set myself an offline race with Civics @ Loch Drummond. Accidentally still had Karts selected and decided to race anyway. omg. . What you lose on the straight, you gain in the bends :)
 
I hope ISI are careful because it's darn good as it is at the moment, I trust they'll inch it in the direction though if they feel they need to make some refinements
 
I am away from racing rig for the rest of the week, but Paul and others--are you driving on a green track, or one with the exaggerated real road build-up? Within a few laps there is about a 4 hour, 30 kart race's worth of rubber on there...not at all realistic.

Also, try the Dallas track! See what your impression is on that one.
 
Marc Collins said:
I am away from racing rig for the rest of the week, but Paul and others--are you driving on a green track, or one with the exaggerated real road build-up? Within a few laps there is about a 4 hour, 30 kart race's worth of rubber on there...not at all realistic.

Also, try the Dallas track! See what your impression is on that one.
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Am I the only one who likes the sped up RealRoad considering that most races are only 10-15 laps long, and most practice sessions are only 20 or 30 mins long?

The way it's set now is almost like when you speed up mechanical failures, tyre wear, or time scale, in order to be proportional to how long your race event actually is. This way we get the full experience even though we are only running 1 or 2 practice sessions of 20 or 30 mins + a 10 or 15 lap race.

I think it scales very well with such a shortly condensed full race "event".
 
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My belief is that the intention is to set real road closely reflecting the amount tyre wear that had occurred, which means if you want to have real road 'accelerated' you will still be able to accelerate the tyre wear to do so.

There is a bit of a misunderstanding, partially overstating the difference of the new steering system (which require new HDV parameters to enable). There is indeed a small gain in accuracy for FFB, but the old system worked reasonably well for rack and pinion steering types, which for a kart is certainly wrong, so the gain for karts is pretty significant. For other vehicles with rack and pinion the gain is small, but it does return slightly more accurate forces. Build 590 also included better interpolation for the steering (all cars) and you have a slightly less noisey FFB.
 
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