Discussion in 'News & Notifications' started by 88mphTim, Mar 29, 2014.
Thankyou ISI, These are the best fun i've had in along while, Top job...
Paul, not my experience at all. The junior kart I drive in rF2 reacts and responds just like the one in the video. A subtle controlled slide is not the fastest way through a corner...driving on the knife-edge of grip is the fastest way. All I can tell you is my steering wheel moves an awful lot like the one in the video--requiring corrections to prevent over-steer one moment and then the opposite later to prevent bogging and under-steer (although there aren't any tight corners on the track in the video, compared to ISI Quebec track...but it still looks like a great track!).
From what I remember in the karts... most of the feeing came from my backside, the fact you can't get that in a sim car under normal circumstances makes it difficult to judge against real life.
The similarity I do find is when I take a corner too the wheels/kart will hop. I have experienced this in a normal kart, ending all my momentum which takes a while to regain. Karts have a LOT of grip but only in a straight line, they don't react well to being chucked around. But I would have expected a bit more controllable slip on a damp track. I can't wait to get back into a real kart again! Any simracers near Buckmore Park?
At high speed, and the sweepers in Quebec the kart handles pretty accurately, I'd say through the tight hairpin on the 3rd layout the kart bogs down and the tyres scrub too much. It's just too hard to consistently keep in control.
This is just from experience though, I initially thought they drove perfectly but the more I drive them the more things I'm noticing.
The rF2 karts simulate the scrubbing and bogging down thing amazingly realistic in my opinion.
I think the rF2 karts are one of the best sim cars ever made, for any sim.
I'm not saying the physicality of it isn't great, but I do think it's just a little too much. My local circuit has two hairpins with similar radius to the one in Quebec, and I can't say my kart ever scrubbed or bogged the way it does in sim. I'm not saying it didn't do it at all, it was just never so extreme.
Even the track day karts I rode in bogged down and they were dual 175cc I think (not racing engines of course). I am not sure whether a 125cc racing kart would bog down this much... I remember seeing vids of people bumping up and down in the karts to try and get them to go faster from a bogged down state
Pity there is music over the top.
See the grip? See the hopping?
Yeah, I was never saying that karts don't bog down, I just think it's easier to carry speed through slow corners in reality than it is in sim, and when I've tried to figure out why it might be, it's because of the way the tires scrub.
Bumping up and down surprisingly works. I've instinctually done it a few times at Quebec!
I wasn't disagreeing, there are far better people with more knowledge on these real life karts than me anyhow
You can drive the karts consiently without overscrubbing and overbogging, I think it's just a feel thing regarding car feedback in real-life compared to a sim, ffb, and also speed feeling. I feel like I am stopped when I go 30 km/h in the pits, where as in real life you can definitely feel the speed, bumps, vibrations, car feedback, etc. even at 30 km/h.
Hello, I unzipped and extracted the file from the mass ddds, I painted and so I called pmgl_1althelmet.dds and not charge me. What if I managed to paint the suit was the pilot.
FYI - I just released Dallas Karting Complex 1.0
I'll say thanks a million before I even try it!
An AMAZING quality first release. I replied over the track thread, too.
If you can't do controlled drifts and slides in the Junior kart on this (smooth and relatively wide) track, then you have a controller/configuration issue! Seriously, it will be a good test track for that purpose.
I personally do not agree. The sliding, correcting, weight transfer, and just overall handling dyanmics in that GT6 Lancia video are much too slow, too smooth, too "weighty" and smooth for a real-life kart. However I do love the video, and your driving
No never had the privilege of driving one, I don't even think I've seen one in real life. However I have driven real karts, 2 different Rotax Max on 2 different tracks, and a total of 4 different track layouts, also the regular "public" karts that most of us have tried. I have also worked at a racetrack and pretty much lived at one for about a year. We had weekends where big karting events took place. All sorts of categories. 125 CC rotax, shifters, guys from all across Canada and even U.S.A. I believe. The RF2 karts are amazingly close. The Lancia in your video looks like it handles like a lightweight, twitchy, short wheelbase car (like it most likely is supposed to) being driven hard to it's limits, yes definitely....however it is not behaving like a kart. The RF2 handling dynamics are much, MUCH closer to a real kart than the Lancia in that video.
I believe that the only stand-out thing "off" with the karts is that it's sometimes too easy to overcorrect and snap the other way (could be down to FFB/hardware latency/lag and lack of feel sitting behind a desk, but maybe a bit to due with the physics engine as well which I believe to be part of the issue), and maybe the rear should allow us to hold a rear slide/drift just a tiny bit longer before having to be snap corrected. Overall though it is one of the closest representations of a real-life car I have ever experienced in any sim.
If you look at how the top drivers in rF2 drive and lap it and then see how real drivers do in the top series it is scarily similar, from braking, to corner entry, turn in, mid corner, exit, snap slides, spins, bogging, bumps on entry, bumps mid corner, bumps under acceleration, being over aggressive with the turn-in, sliding wide and then regaining front grip, everything.
All I can think of "off" with it is just a bit more controllable rear-slip needed, in specifically the following 2 areas:
1. being able to hold the drift/slip angle for a fraction of a second longer during braking and entry before having to be snap-corrected
2. overall rear-correction not being so prone to overly-snappy (even for a kart) over-correction
These are 2 specific areas of rear-end handling dynamics that are extremely difficult to get just perfect WITHOUT actually compromising/"dumbing-down"/simplifying the overall handling model. Also it's always hard to say how much of it is due to actual physics and how much of it is due to FFB/hardware latency/lag + not being able to directly feel the car underneath you.
Sorry Paul, I guess I just misunderstood you. Ya you're right, we're probably describing the same thing.
Maybe it's not that they have too much grip though, but more of HOW the tyres regain that lost grip during different slip percentages, slip angles in combination with how much forward speed they are carrying. Because when they are not sliding then the actual grip does not seem overly high at all, so I don't think it's too much all-out grip, but more to do with how it transitions from different grip/slip percentages and states. Maybe after the initial breakaway slide, once you catch and hold the slide, maybe then the tyres just regain their full-on grip just slightly too quickly? Maybe it has to do with the rotation axis point which sometimes feels like it is too forward in ISI based sims (going back to even before RFactor 1, however it has thankfully continued to improve more and more including in rF2). I explained this a bit further in post #323 of this same thread.
You have to admit though, we are criticizing a sim-car that is probably one of the best sim-cars of all time on any sim-game / sim-engine.
I also think the amazingness of the rF2 kart has something to do with the fact that ISI has a brand new FFB model for the karts which is supposed to be even more realistic/better than what the other cars use. I find it AMAZING that this wasn't mentioned much and given more attention from ISI, I think it was just one little sentence buried in the release notes. Apart from pure physics, FFB is BY FAR the 2nd most important part of a sim. Also, I have a feeling it is more than just FFB because Tim said that he wasn't sure if the other cars could be quickly converted to this new FFB model; that indicates to me that it's not just FFB, but rather something in the physics modelling which then "connects" to the FFB. The rF2 kart feels like a leap forward even from the rF2 Panoz and Civic in my opinion. There may be some great new developments that ISI are doing with regards to physics and FFB, and maybe they have first introduced these new developments to us in the form of the karts.
"There may be some great new developments that ISI are doing with regards to physics and FFB, and maybe they have first introduced these new developments to us in the form of the karts."
That's very interesting! I'd like to hear from Tim about it...
Set myself an offline race with Civics @ Loch Drummond. Accidentally still had Karts selected and decided to race anyway. omg. . What you lose on the straight, you gain in the bends
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