Isi, please change your minds about tyre design in rf2

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by gilloux31, Oct 25, 2012.

  1. gilloux31

    gilloux31 Registered

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    Hello

    I have been testing rf2 for a long time now, almost since rf2 has been released for beta test

    I was surprised by the choice of isi which consist in describing the construction of the tyre rather than specifying its performance as it is required currenly in rf1.

    The reasons are simple in my opinion :

    - I don't think someone is able to give the information about how tyres are constructed, and especially racing tyres. It is indeed already difficult to find tyres data about performances (like grip cofficient, slip curves, peak migration etc....). More over, these data depends on how tyres are constructed by manufacturers and also are different for all kind of tyres (street vs racing, tyre for monoplace or for gt ...). Yet, we can consider that these data of performance are not directly industrials secrets (in general one can measure these data with tests). So what is the chance for us to have construction secrets to put them in the rf2 ttool ? My opinion is 0%.

    - It s quite evident that how the tyre is simulated is one of the most important aspect of a good simulation with good driving feelings. I am wondering why isi think that we need these data about the construction of tyres, and why are improvement of rf1 model itself would not be enough. In my opinion it should be more a question of engine, to improve the simulation of the tyres. if i make a parallel with shock absorber , isi has chosen for the tyres definition a curious logic which would correspond to choose the length and diameter of the cylinder and the piston to have the awaited behavior of the car without giving the actual damper rate.

    - third point is linked to the second one : how can a modder adjust the physics of his mod if he has'nt got any tool to give synthetic information of the tyre calculated by ttool. Indeed, currently, if i decided to construct a tyre in ttool, the first question that i have to answered is : what is the max grip need; what is the lateral and longitudinal peak migrations, the slip curve etc etc ... With these data i would be almost able to explian the behavior of the car on the track in rf2. And then i would be able to update my work. Currently , ttool doesn't give these information after analysis of tgm data. It is then almost impossible to evaluate the quality of a tgm relative to the tyres needed in the mod.

    - fourth, the ttool calculations are very long. It is problably normal but it prevents to progress on tyre definition. For all the reason explained before, one modder could have to run ttool numerous time, and finally tyre editing is not really possible

    After several weeks to search, test and navigating on the web. My opinion has not changed. It is even confirmed according to me.

    So the request i make is simple.

    Isi, until performant modding tool dedicated for tyres are available you should give the choice to modders to use tgm ou tbc file to make their mod :
    - in case one is able to using tgm , with a good result on track, then it will be able to give his feedback to others and make thing progress for the community (and isi also)
    - in case one in not able, he can use the tbc, maybe ajusted for rf2, and based on experience of rf1, to propose a mod which could reach a quality enough to please the community


    Then with the feedback and the time passing, isi could propose a tool that convert the tgm file to the tbc file, used by rf2.

    In my opinion, the tyre design in rf2, is maybe the most worrying aspect of the rf2, and the success of rf2 depends on this point. At the moment, isi should propose something different for tyres definition in order to give modding team the choice during the improvement of rf2 tools.

    Gilles
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2012
  2. Kknorpp001

    Kknorpp001 Banned

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    ^^ interesting opportunity for specialist? Building virtual tires? I'll do it for whatever the real life tire costs LOL.
     
  3. hoser70

    hoser70 Registered

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    What?
     
  4. evphelps

    evphelps Registered

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    Eh?
    Damn Google translate!!!
    As far as my Human brain universal Google re-translator (tm) can determine,you want to be able to use rF1 Tbc for quick and dirty conversions in rF2?
    If so,I hope ISI totally ignore your request,it doesn't work for rF1 after all :confused:
     
  5. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    A few cents from me:
    - old model also require a lot of knowledge and experience. I know only a few modders over the world who knows what values to put into tbc files. Most mods released have "fantasy" tires unfortunately.
    - old model has weaknesses in some situations (low speed)
    - old model require data to describe behaviour beyond limit. But even tyre companies have no data to describe it. So modders must guess.
    - I don't care that new moddel require more knowledge from modders. I don't care if only a few modders would be able to do it. Usually quality require more effort. And it is that case.
    - ISI should provide tyres for most popular series (slicks, radials in various sizes, mixtures, types etc). I've heard from one of beta testers that ISI wants to do this that way. But it was almost 2 years ago.
     
  6. gilloux31

    gilloux31 Registered

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    Absolutely not ! brain failure or brain to upgrade ;) !! Try again !!
     
  7. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    My experiments are giving me results that geometry itself (thing you need to know materials and you computer with tire tool) has more subtle effect to how tire behaves than what effect you can get with small changes to certain parameters in realtime section.

    If geometry has just somewhat sensible materials etc. any geometry can produce any kind of handling characteristics and those you can make happen with realtime section. Seem to have more of deformation which geometry effects, also when contact patch load model is finished it might have larger effect, but imperfections in geometry you can easily mask out by realtime section. Not that you should, but it is just something that is possible.

    That then makes interesting issue, geometry itself is not so hugely difficult, all you need is to know materials and thicknesses, lot of stuff about that can be found so one can make something enough close.

    However parameters at realtime section that have more effect of how tire behaves are rF2 specific without much of information just how this black round circle next to me becomes to those numbers. That is part I believe would deserve most attention, but perhaps it is so poorly understood at this stage by modders that it is taken as being good as it is by ISI tires?

    New system is really great, it does offer much more, imo. Of course there are new challenges too, but I would think that challenges lies not there where most seem to look when saying this is an issue, but under that lies truly interesting bit that can be more of an issue.
     
  8. Flaux

    Flaux Registered

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    I thought thats what they are already doing with their mod-selection... We already have a lot of variety when it comes to tires... Don't think it is hard to modify an existing isi-tire-3d to match a different series for example...

    Enduracers could make the hole series based on the Nissan GT1 tire for instance... or the upcoming GT2 Vette... or am I wrong?
     
  9. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    Yes you are right. it was my point basically. Most modders will not need to dig in tires. They likely will get one from ISI. So, there is no reason to afraid of new tire model.
     
  10. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    Probably only thing that will be left into dark is older street tires (not performance ones), as that is probably bit out of scope for ISI.

    Looking that infamous image where there is circle of vehicles, it looks like that quite large portition of race car tires will come from ISI.

    For modders, single greatest challenge, imo. is how to adjust tirest according to different weight of vehicle as that seem to cause quite bit of changes to how tire behaves. Tires tend to gain loads of grip with weight, easily 1.5G or more with 60's formula tires in bit heavier vehicle for example and reducing grip multiplier will not do, but I believe there has to be some formula how to get base set of numbers for certain weight. (no, not tempbristle spring, but rest of realtime parameters, which affect is and by which formula).

    That is something those need to figure out that attempt to adopt some tire from different weight vehicle.

    Not as big scary thing what it might look at first though, it is even possible to get decently behaving tire that has proper grip level and great feel, without looking any real data, wear and heat might however be then way off, but those one can also fiddle some time and make those too to be somewhat correct, not perfect, but not out of a whack either, in ways I think this new model is easier for modder than rF1 version.

    With proper data and such, it might provide really nice solution. I think it is much better than what we had in rF1.
     
  11. Domi

    Domi Registered

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    Older model required hard data, and new model require a lot of trust from the mod developers in that model :) Who says that the model works properly giving 100% accurate tire data?

    I agree with the OP when he says we need tools to analyze the information generated by the ttool. At the moment everything seems very confusing.
     
  12. CdnRacer

    CdnRacer Banned

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    Sounds right on par for the course then. Have you ever read or done some research on modern racing tires? If you have you'll know that it is very confusing.
     
  13. RMachucaA

    RMachucaA Registered

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    What i suggest, is that ISI release 5-6 tyre types for use as reference.
    1-all season street tire
    1-offroad\mud\snow tire
    1-summer performance street tire
    1-Hard compound racing slick (or street legal semi slick, like toyo RA1's)
    1-Medium compound slick
    1-soft compound slick

    Based off these, everyone will be able to take that and more or less get pretty close handling to their mod, be it a street car or full on racing GT car or a rallycross car.
     
  14. Fabio Pittol

    Fabio Pittol Registered

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    I don't think variations as hard, medium anf soft compounds really matters to be given from ISI. Those cases are not rocket-science for any rF1 modder to work out.

    The biggest issue regarding rF2's tire model is data from tire structure itself. So, at least from what I know (and I'm no physics expert at all), the structure of a DTM tire will be different from a GT1 car, and yet completely different from a V8 Supercars tire, also from a NASCAR tire. As well as a F1, or a GP2 tire will be structurally completely different from a IndyCar tire.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2012
  15. osella

    osella Registered

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    Yeah street cars will be the biggest problem, for race cars we should have plenty of pro tires from ISI, they're not gonna include any street car AFAIK.
     
  16. Satangoss

    Satangoss Registered

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    Damn, I didn't understand anything that OP said.
     
  17. CdnRacer

    CdnRacer Banned

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    That makes two of us. :p
     
  18. osella

    osella Registered

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    Sorry for OT, couldnt help it. Hole series like this? :p

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Flaux

    Flaux Registered

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    Lol,.. thx mate I guess it would be uncool to update my post now... :p
     
  20. GTClub_wajdi

    GTClub_wajdi Registered

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    What are you speaking about?maybe women?:p..
     

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