Released INDYCAR IR-18

Discussion in 'News & Notifications' started by Paul Jeffrey, Feb 2, 2022.

  1. Simulation_Player

    Simulation_Player Registered

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    i meant no disrespect, but i can't just take your word for it. looking at images on google and in-game. the front and rear wing are different.
    from wikipedia i found that ir18 has some changes to floor too. the rear tyre "blocker" (idk what is called) is very different too.
    yet they have exactly same physics values ?

    edit : the sidepod design is completely different too

    https://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp-content/gallery/dallara-ir12-indianapolis-test/zupirl2.jpg

    https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/ae42fdefde13f1ed001bea2004809fc7

    Take a look for yourself, i think u are understating the difference quite a bit.
     
  2. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @Simulation_Player You have rightly identified some questionable aspects of certain cars, and you're not the only one. There have been more obvious examples over the years too, including graphical anomalies, that either take ages to get fixed or still haven't been. You may feel and even be justified in jumping up and down about it, but with the precedents of previous (non-)fixes you shouldn't be surprised if you don't get a prompt, detailed explanation or apology or patch. As annoying as it might be you need to temper your expectations for your own sanity. That doesn't mean you shouldn't care or say anything, but try to keep this in context (this is a game; you aren't a commercial client paying tens/hundreds of thousands for an ultra realistic simulation that will help determine the success of your multi-million dollar investment in a racing series) and be realistic about how quickly a leopard will change its spots.

    IMO there are multiple reasons all DLC isn't bought by every owner of rF2, and quality is one of them.


    Now, as much as we might like to kid ourselves otherwise, sims are never perfect. If car aero isn't 'calculated' via massive lookup tables covering all possible scenarios (a utopian dream. It could never happen) you fall back to defining individual components and trying to model their effects. We have already discussed how rF2 could do more here, but it's easy to lose sight of the inherent error in all of this.

    There might be some baseline performance measurements within let's say 2% of the real thing, acting as verification of the parameters. Outside those specific conditions you might get 5 or 10% (or more?) error compared to reality. Do you notice as a driver? Almost certainly not, as long as the balance is about right.

    Are the original wing parameters perfectly accurate? I'd assume not. Would changing them arbitrarily by 0.5% for the IR-18 make them more or less accurate? Who knows. It would probably fool you into thinking they've been freshly calculated from the updated car (you could question the degree of change, but with very little basis), but from a driving point of view it would be meaningless.

    You might be annoyed by unchanged values (that the car as a whole is based on a copy-paste seems sensible) but it may make no significant difference to the driving or realism. If they hid the upgrades file you wouldn't even know about it (the wing ranges have changed, so you couldn't do a 1:1 comparison).
     
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  3. Simulation_Player

    Simulation_Player Registered

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    "be realistic about how quickly a leopard will change its spots" thats new phrase for me :)

    you do make good points.
    idk what else to say on this now, I definitely lost interest in buying any future content(yes its just one guy so no one cares).
    Such a shame just a few day before i was enjoying myself with new car and now i have found something horribly wrong aaannnnd its gone....it always happens to car i enjoy the most haha.....sigh.
    don't even feel like playing rf2 tbh, physics value being off/wrong is one thing but copy pasting and claiming that they worked closely with teams/manufacturer hit differently, i never expected this.
     
  4. David Short

    David Short Registered

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    I haven't commented since its release hoping that hotfixes would solve the problem. I was absolutely stoked when 397 announced that they were coming out with an official Indy car. My joy from the game comes from driving the highest end open wheel cars. So it was an instant buy of the new RF2 Indycar but there is definitely something wrong with it. Even with motec(thanks Lazza for the plugin) it's extremely hard to get a good setup and it really feels like you just have to settle on something drivable. And the response from my motion platform tells me why .....it almost seems like Studio 397 has mixed up numbers in their suspension inputs, (like longitudinal inputs have been inputed into lateral inputs and visa versa) on long straightaways(and everywhere but less noticeable because of the speed) the car going over bumps instead of pitching and heaving(longitudinally) like it should rocks left and right voilentley (Laterally). Back straight at Portland prime example as I go do down the back straight the car (motion platform) starts rocking hard left and right. Feels terrible and completely disjointed. I realize most people don't have a motion platform but its the only car in rF2 that feels so far away from the actual sensation you should feel its almost like its dyslexic. I'm sure some good drivers that don't have a motion platform and only rely on FFB tend to find the car a little hard to extract the the best out of ??? I won't tag the dev's here but would be interested to hear if anyone has noticed that this car seems different (off)?
     
  5. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    The motion platform introduces another variable as we don't know what telemetry it uses - have you noticed anything strange in data correlating to what you're getting on the straight?

    Your description I think succinctly relays what you're feeling, but we should be able to rule out any typos regarding tying of telemetry or physics to certain axes, as it just doesn't work that way (the suspension is defined in virtual space per the parameters, and the physics engine runs it live from there - there's no code in vehicle files to define inputs etc). It seems unlikely the suspension would be modelled incorrectly to that extent.

    I personally would suspect a tyre reaction that might be harmonizing with the suspension and/or your motion rig, because the tyre model strength is also its weakness: being based on a physical model it's not reliant on sparse and potentially incorrect data tables, but that means you can't spot any issues in data tables (If there's a strange oscillation in a certain scenario, you have to test that scenario to find it). Some parameters are the "push this until it breaks, then take it back a couple of notches" type, and I wonder if sometimes that allows little issues to survive unnoticed.

    Anyway, would be interesting if the tyre and suspension/force telemetry shows what you're feeling. (I don't know how configurable the motion is; maybe a problematic input could be reduced...)
     
  6. David Short

    David Short Registered

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    Thank you for your response Lazza in my opinion and I'm sure many more you are a very valued and rational source on all things rF2 and I personally value your insights. I can only say that my motion platform works for every single car in rF2 except for the Indycar . Every other one feels natural in their motions...tweak the settings to perfection. I Have tried to tweak the Indycar nonstop and still can't find anything That even feels normal. No offence but are you sure with their track record that we can absolutely rule out any typos about telemetry and if its put on the wrong axis. You say it dosen't work that way but if you put a wrong value into longitudinally and Lateral movement would it not effect the movement of the car
     
  7. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    That's the thing: you don't put values into lat and long movement as a car maker. Aero parts have directional parameters but there should be so little angle in this scenario that anything but the most ridiculous values wouldn't have any effect (and they would have huge consequences at other times). Everything else is down and up (lift really: positive or negative), then the suspension will push whichever way it's been modelled which could generate side forces, but if the real one doesn't and the modelled one is anywhere near it, it shouldn't stand out from other cars. I haven't gone through the channels of DLC cars to check what's actually available for a motion rig but I guess a lot of it is G force. If there's an
    issue it'll either be the tyres doing something funky or actually a problem with the suspension, I guess.
     
  8. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    The best approach would be to know all the data channels that are fed to the motion platform, and check one by one if their output is coherent with the car behaviour and the platform behaviour. Excluding one at a time should make finding the problem easier. Once you look at the right data channel it should be easier to tell where the error is. Do the platform take only positional data of the chassis, or it read the four corner suspension to determine motion?
    Do the problem show up in both the oval and circuit configurations?
     
  9. David Short

    David Short Registered

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    I will take your word for how the programming is done but my original comment is still the same. If 99.99 % of the cars run fine on my motion system and I barely need to tune it to feel natural and win races but my attempts to tune the indycar with motec and my motion system leaves it still lacking and feeling weird, is it not possible that there might be a problem with that car?? Have you driven it? Maybe I'm old and crazy but I'm positive that this car doesn't drive correctly. That's why I asked if anyone else found it felt weird?
     
  10. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I'm probably just posting needlessly again. I'm not disputing the car might be off, just pointing out what it won't be.

    Let me try and be a little more constructive: is the old DW-12 similar, or does it behave correctly? It seems a large amount of the car hasn't changed, so if the old one is fine it might point towards new tyres.
     
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  11. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Nobody is saying that the car can't have some kind of error in it, but finding it will help developers checking if something is wrong. I don't have enough experience to have noticed something strange in this car in respect of all the others.
     
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  12. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    As a side note, the behaviour you describe, remember me that feeling of being in the backseat of a car with a rigid rear axle and track bar : the car body moved left and right in combination of upward and downward movements.
     
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  13. Marc Bolger

    Marc Bolger Registered

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    Is there a source of information regarding the indy car set up for any given number of tracks? I had too much pull to my left on Indy Oval and any little jinx or steer to the left and I would slide left out of control. So I typed in google about Indy cars pulling left for Indy Oval and I found some information where it stated how Indy cars are set up as such for ovals for that purpose through the suspension system. So , me not honestly knowing anything compared the right and left sides of the car through the suspension and I noticed how within the game it seems fixed so I tried to counter balance it to make it more even and I then had way less pull to the left and I could control the car much better. It then became drivable on the oval for me. Does anyone know of a source for various adjustments for us to learn, kind of like a strategy guide. And Gear ratio adjustments. "?" At the Brands Hatch Indy circuit it's fastest part of the track I can barely get to 6th gear.
    Makes me wonder if that can be changed for a smaller track compared to a larger course track. There's got to be a reason we can adjust gears for various situations. Just wondering where I can learn a thing or two as I am the prisoner of mother ignorance.
    With all the possible set up adjustments I'm surprised that there's not a strategy guide from the makers of Indy or some sort of school project. Is there?
    Thank you
     
  14. Coutie

    Coutie Moderator Staff Member

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    You can just read some oval and road setup guides, they should give you all the basic info you need. Race2Play setup developer is good too, if you can fine it.
    Here are some oval setups, I got the Indy one from discord, Gateway is modified from that.
     

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  15. Marc Bolger

    Marc Bolger Registered

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    Thank you for the insight and help. I'll keep fishing as some of that seems to have been changed, but I noticed a program on Steam but also just typing in the question and getting a real answer from real Indy has also been helpful. 1. One question.... "I created a couple of "Indy Cars" and I was wondering how to delete them or remove them"? I was testing the paint room in the showroom and , LOL. I created a couple of color birds and was wondering how to get rid of them"?
    I looked up a Long Beach lap time and found a record from one of the older cars, the DW12?.... and the lap time at Long Beach record was 1:07.2359 I so far can manage to run a 1:14.357
    I'm running as a rookie here (newb), I decided to start with a GT-DD Pro, a Club Sport V2.5 along with the V3 Pedal system.
    God I love the feel! I have the feedback up in the game at 70% but through the Fanatec software I turned it down to 45%
    Any way I can ditch the new "INDY CAR" color birds I created? LOL
    Thank you
     
  16. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Watch replays of the Indy 500 and you will see the cars snake away from the wall as they exit onto the two main straights. That setup, like a Nascar setup for ovals has the inside tires canted \ \ like that instead of our normal road course setting of / \. The speed lost in a corner without that hard pull to the left can't be made up on the straights. Try adjusting your steering to reduce your wheel's lock to lock range and experiment with the sensitivity slider. If my memory serves, moving the slider to the left of center should slow down the initial input and reduce a chance of oversteer.
     
  17. Coutie

    Coutie Moderator Staff Member

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    rFactor 2\UserData\player\Settings\DallaraIR18_2020, then delete the folders that are in there.
     
  18. Marc Bolger

    Marc Bolger Registered

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    AHhh yeah... that sounds cool. Thee ole Slider trick eh?
    Thanx!
     
  19. Marc Bolger

    Marc Bolger Registered

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    Thank you very much. I was looking at that but I couldn't tell if that was my little creation or something I shouldn't mess with.
    Thanx! "Mucho-Grass-I-ass"
     
  20. Marc Bolger

    Marc Bolger Registered

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    Well I did just that but their still there. LOL
    Any other ideas maybe?
     

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