so why is the Clio's AI sliding into corners with smoke pouring out. They are breaking way to close in corners, try breaking at the 50 sign's into a corner and your never stop in time or the back end slips out. ive seen a Clio race@donnington and they look nothing like that. Yes they slid of the track maybe, but they certainly don't break at 50 yards of the corner and complete them with out a sweat.
After a trackday at Zandvoort yesterday it once again surprised me how much we miss in terms of 'seat of the pants' feeling. I really think almost every sim has too little grip at low speeds, but on the other hand, maybe more importantly, we miss so much of all the cues that you're near the limit. Between the squeeling of the tires there was some tire rubbing, slight change in balance and over the limit you feel the car moving under you in a way. These types of cues, I can honestly tell, I haven't felt them being properly replicated in expensive in motion systems. So, this topic goes both ways really, on the one hand we could use a little more grip at low speeds, especially when rolling (not neccesarily on the throttle), but maybe what we benefit more from is better placed cues. Louder tire squeels for one, the tire rubbing sensation which I totally miss in every sim. Then still, we're in our (mostly) stationary rigs so even with more grip and better cues, it'll always feel a bit off I'm afraid. A little late maybe, but just my 2 cents
I think this is missed at all sims till now, it would be a breakethrough to have it. As for the other clues when you go fast, Im very impressed by RF2s performance, having in mind the physical limitations (lack of Gs, seat-of-the-pants feeling)
@Nikos Indeed It's the physical limitations which limit RF2's performance as well as I mentioned. Even with perfectly set-up grip levels on rF2's part, if you can't feel how close you are to the limit at a certain point, you are still too late with corrections more often than not and you end up having the car driving you instead of you driving the car. Despite of catching or not catching slides, you just don't get the level of control you have in real life since all the cues which you use to get that level of control simply aren't transmitted to begin with. This sort of stuff though is what makes a simulation what it is, it tries to replicate real life situations as good as it can with its limitations since it isn't real life to begin with To try out what I mean with missing cues, try racing a motion sim for several hours, and go back to a static rig. Or, try a servo wheel vs a 'regular' consumer wheel. A rig with buttkickers/simvibe or a rig without. When you go back you're like, who turned off my sim!!
I take wgeuze's point regarding lack of 'seat of the pants' information, but I also think there is an issue regarding drifting. The same sort of thing's been discussed in iRacing too, btw. It seems to me that fall-off in lateral grip over the limit is too sensitive to slip ratio. So in drifting, for example, although you can hold the car sideways, it requires extremely careful throttle control to do so; a fraction too little and you re-gain grip, but a fraction too much and lateral grip goes away very suddenly leading to a spin. In RL, drifters are often quite aggressive with the throttle, almost as though it's a case of 'give it enough beans and it'll keep sliding'. Or at least, that there's quite a range of throttle inputs that will maintain a drift as long as the rear doesn't start gripping. It's very difficult to 'drive' the rF2 cars with the throttle as such in a drift around corners. It's more a case of doing all you can to just hold it there with a very skilful narrow range of throttle inputs. This interaction between high slip angle and slip ratio can manifest in other situations IMO, e.g. a bit of power over-steer on exit can mean the car gets away from you very quickly in some corners. But as said, it's not finished yet, and personally, I think NKpro is too easy in this regard - it has too little sense of any 'scary region'.
A lot of heated discusions here about this, can I make a point though. Only specific cars are drifters, not all of them (rally cars definately are btw) Drifting a car that isnt supposed to, you loose it very easily and suddenly. I remember in this forum discussions why F1 60s cars are very difficult to control through a drift, but are they supposed to behave like drifters? Would anyone in real life drift repeatedly a formula going 250 plus km/h? I remember most track racing drivers saying this is a no-no, formulas can snap suddenly and you loose valuable time this way too, not to mention damage to tires. I remember too, while lets say a Honda S2000 was a fine drifter, if you did the same with a 911, you were really pushing your luck.
it not the point on seat of the pants driving I was trying to make, it the braking system which seems to be a point I making. The Ai cars for some reason don't seem to slow down before they come to the corners ,like most people do. The needs to be some sort of adjustment to that area has currently the AI just seem to stop dead on some point on the corner,Instead of slowing down with a decrement of speed for the adjust for the corner taking, instead of the sudden point of stopping almost at the point of turning apex into the corner. Also I seems to suffer from braking hard and loosing the steering wheel (which seems to lock on opposite steering-no opposite lock is not on).which causes a lot of rear facing/sliding. I can control most over steer with out any problems, or been hard Forced to by physic's system. The system has it flaws, that need to be iron out, more on the system that controls the Accelerator/braking system that seems to cause a lot of over steer/under steering & bad braking at slow speeds on tighter corners. How many times have you lost control on Tight corners at low speed (under 50kmh).I lost most arguments with it.
there probably is some issue, no sim is perfect to add to that, after this thread lived up again I decided to take the marussia for a spin at the modern moncao v2012. Well, throttling out of slow corners is one hell of a challenge for me; the car either launches away, or seems to spin 180 degrees at some pivotal point in the centre of the car. What is realistic? who knows..
Yes you are correct and why IMO the two guys a few pages back are so off the mark when slating the physics. They are using a real life comparison that they drive that does not match any car currently in rF2 or anything even closely resembling a car in rF2. This is why the stuff you read from James and the other guy who appears every time with him is flawed. rF2 has pretty much most of it right within a simulated enviroment. You will never get that seat of pants feel in a sim really. My issue with rF2 and it was the same with rF1 and reminds me of the early builds of iRacing and that is what wgeuze alluded to earlier, the low speed corners. I always feel like a passenger here in these moments, always feel like you are driving on egg shells, constantly chasing the throttle. Doesn't feel right in comparison to the rest that does feel right. On the limit and attacking rF2 is really very good, nowhere near as many wtf moments as you used to get in rF1 and for me more so iRacing. But as said something bothers me in the slow corners. Classics are actually better in this regard in rF2 in comparison to some others. Green track grip is also stupid right now for me, so overdone.
Totally agree. Its so unrealistic, if you go slow your chances of loosing it are bigger than driving near the limit, exactly the opposite than IRL. But it is the same situation in all racing sims as far as I remember. There was a discussion about it some time ago, the point made was that this couldnt change before next generation of simulators. Of course I cant comment on that, Im ignorant about sims physics. btw, glad to see you back.
It's difficult to make blanket statements about though. There are times in a medium speed slide in rF2, where things seemed to naturally become controllable again as the speed scrubbed off, and I've thought it would have kept sliding and spun out in iRacing. On the other hand, there are particular situations in rF2 where I'd agree there seems to be a low speed, 'oil patch' effect. I'm not at all sure this is the traditional, computational, very low speed problem though.
I notice that in rF2 it is much easier to spin your car back to the right direction after a spin (as long as not in grass). once you hit the brakes - it stops spinning believably. In iRacing, it usually continues to spin like you are in some slush or something. I love both sims but rF2 has the leg up in this area.
If the problem is there, it's not the computational problem as the current real-time model is a brush model instead of the previous pacejka model which is reputed to have this issue. The very interesting things hence is that even with a completely different tire model to the previous one, it might boast the same 'problem'.
Oh and before I forget.. the performance of the tire model and behavior of the car is limited by the numbers it's fed with. eventually its the designer who decides what numbers to give in and how the car behaves. Just look at Niels Heusinkveld's cars, they receive lots of praise for how they behave, and all done with that very pacejka model which is reputed for its low-speed flaws..
GSC and the Kunos titles have it nailed perfectly in this area for me. The F1 in GSC for instance gives you bundles of confidence in the slow stuff, i really like what they achieved in that sim with regards to engine used and the tyre feel they achieved in the slow stuff. Never feel nervous, always can feel when there is the right amount of grip. I think rF2 just needs to improve feedback in the wheel in the slow stuff, it's like you lose all sense of feel. I am wondering if the contact patch needs adjusting maybe still. Even so overall and once rubbered in rF2 feels sensational at times. Coming back from a long time away i can see the differences maybe more than most. The Megane is a different car, this i hope is how ISI are going to go now with physics, it's right up there now, feels great and exactly how i expect a car like this to behave. What i really want is to try a road car in rF2 to see if they can nail the feeling difference between a road car and race spec car. Cobra can not come soon enough.
