Discussion about tyres.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Slip_Angel, Aug 13, 2019.

Tags:
  1. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2019
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    41
    Hello guys,
    I did some testing on some cars around sepang and wanted to share what i saw.
    1)On marussia f1 the mid part of both front and rear tyre heats up more than inside part even on slightly tweaked camber(more negative)but despite this the car handle okay probably devs used some sort of cheap trick to get around bad tyre model(I think this one doesn not have new tyre model)
    Also on FISI the front tyres heats slightly more than rear even if im driving fast but ofcourse if you slide all the time then rear will generate more heat but im talking about driving on limit here.Despite having stiff rear end(which is unrealistic since F1 cars have stiff front end) which is there to get around the fact that rear don't genrate heat but even with all this stiffness rear grips even better than marussia f1.
    2)Well new tyre model is still not that good either->>
    *cars i tested are oreca 07 and MP4/13 both cars tolarate way to much understeer or don't punish excessive steering angles in corners ESPECIALLY oreca 07. What i mean by this is that you can add more lock and car still keep its lane and may even get more grip on front which might be benificial at the cost of front tyres. Turn 5 and 6 are very good examples to exploit this behaviour.
    If you do this the front tyre temp rises even more than rear tyre and the front keeps that high temperature if there is straight section ahead.
    I'm not saying that this is best way to get around corners but while doing so you don't lose much speed(might even gain more speed)hence the understeer is not punishing enough as it is IRL.
    Do you guys noticed this as well ?
     
    LokiD likes this.
  2. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2012
    Messages:
    630
    Likes Received:
    641
    I'm still to understand most recent tire model, i get outside part of tires more hotter than inside cornering, even with ridiculous cambers, like -5.0 or -4.5. Just hoping for an update or a manual explaining how this works, because it's not common sense right now...

    The handling is great, but when we need to setup the camber/pressure i'm lost in the desert, not even with Motec...
     
    Slip_Angel likes this.
  3. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,165
    Likes Received:
    1,072
    Slip you seem to be doing a lot of research and testing on rf2s tyres, but you start many threads but share many good points - think about collating all your ideas in one thread to view ?
     
  4. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2019
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    41
    I do get that effect but car handles normally.what this is telling me that actual in-game values don't make sense IRL but the car handles still okay WITHOUT any consequences which is not realistic at all.
    I'm hoping for explanation as well as this new tyres model still has flaws.
     
    Rui Santos likes this.
  5. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2019
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    41
    I don't know if this is sarcasm or not but thanks anyways.
    Yes i do testing but sometimes i find one thing earlier then i find new things later...i'm no PRO at this stuff.
    Just posting my observations to see what other people have to say and gather the opinions some really knowledgeable people here(no seriously people here at forums really know this stuff so well i learn alot from some of their posts).
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
    LokiD likes this.
  6. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,165
    Likes Received:
    1,072
    no sarcasm mate at all - I liked your Op if you haven't noticed :)
     
    Slip_Angel likes this.
  7. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2019
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    41
    Yea i got the notification just now lol.
    Thanks mate for understanding my point,your tyre hierarchy post helped me.
     
  8. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    6,651
    Likes Received:
    2,508
    What sort of trick? All cars in rF2 run on the physics in the vehicle files. There aren't any magic tweaks.

    Probably? Is that really the most likely option that comes to mind?

    Are you sure?

    Based on what?

    Are you expecting the car to start going straighter when understeering? That's not the definition of understeer.
     
  9. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

    Joined:
    May 22, 2014
    Messages:
    673
    Likes Received:
    174
    Well, i have been wondering if there is too much tolerance for high slip angles and whether the max grip/lateral force from the tires is coming with too much slip angle. With more rear heavy cars i often seem to get through corners faster if i initiate oversteer during braking and maintain it as going through the corner. In onboard videos of real gt3s i'm not seeing that kind of driving. Not sure what to think about this yet.
     
    Slip_Angel likes this.
  10. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2019
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    41
    YES this exactly what you are saying is exactly what i'm experienced.Heavy cars allow to just throw the car around and still carry speeds through corners and STILL keep racing line.
    This is also present in mp4/13(which has latest model according to post i found) but f1 cars are slightly more punishing(still not enough though).
    ACC is simulating slick tyres exactly what you would expect and what you see in onboard and what drivers say.
     
  11. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2019
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    41
    1)I will tell you the trick in marussia f1->>
    I'm driving on limits around sepang with all dmg and stuff ON.The front tyres are heating more throughout corners,BUT despite front having more temperature hence getting more abused you would think front tyre wear will be more than rear BUT to my surprise rear tyre have slightly more wear still! despite NOT having more temps also all tyres were on same compound.

    2)Yes, i'm not saying that f1 rear is soft but it's soft RELATIVE to front but in FISI_2012 the rear is miles ahead in stiffness(rear ARB and slow bump etc).Tell me having such stiff suspension on rear compared to front with over 700HP and under 700kg weight is logical?
    Not to mention front is run stiff IRL to provide stability in high speed stuff and pitch sensitivity.
    Also i'm talking about modern F1(which is what FISI_2012 is)here don't know about old f1 with less aero.
    3)Yea understeer should be more punished no IRL onboards i see them abusing front like in rfactor.
    Understeer not only damages tyres but it cost quite alot speed.
    Do that abuse in ACC and tell me you are not losing time.
     
  12. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    6,651
    Likes Received:
    2,508
    The era of F1 represented in the FISI2012 had no antiroll bars on the rear (well, teams don't tell everyone what they're doing, but it's known many of the teams did this). They compensated with stiffer rear springs. I'm not sure if that's the case in current F1, but it wasn't the case a few years previous to 2012. Overall 'stiffness' isn't properly indicated by the corner springs you're seeing.

    Well ok, let's just dissect what you originally said so we keep things in context:

    you can add more lock and car still keep its lane - you shouldn't assume that just because you add more steering lock, the car will immediately start wandering wide. Of course if you have the front tyres turned at 90° the car will go straight, but that won't start happening immediately.
    and may even get more grip on front which might be benificial at the cost of front tyres. - that gets a bit confusing, and I don't really follow. If you got more grip you would turn sharper, not 'keep your lane'.
    but while doing so you don't lose much speed(might even gain more speed) - I really don't think you'd gain speed in this scenario. I've seen live time loss with only a little too much understeer in several cars in rF2. I don't know why you say things like this, you have a negative tone (towards the game/model) while admitting you don't know if it's true.
    hence the understeer is not punishing enough as it is IRL. - so, based on the questionable stuff above, you're comparing what you're experiencing in the game to real life, which I think you've previously said you haven't done yourself, so you're basing on videos?

    You say in your posts you're not a pro, and you're basically open to learning from other people, but you also talk about the tyre model being broken based on this sort of stuff. Your posts are all over the place, and you're drawing conclusions way too quickly without the knowledge (that you know you don't have) to back up.
     
    Ricardo Diz likes this.
  13. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    6,651
    Likes Received:
    2,508
    I'll answer this separately, long enough post above already...

    I meant a dev trick, which is what you were implying I thought. Moving on...

    Tyre wear is controlled by a parameter in the tyre files, it's easy (and not really a 'trick') to adjust front and rear separately to fix any strange behaviours. So maybe that's happened here, though I wouldn't call the underlying model into question based purely on that.

    Anyway, these cars have more weight on the rear, and the tyre manufacturer may have compensated for that as well (front and rears are different, so not only are the tyres experiencing different loads, and different forces (fronts turn, rears accelerate and turn), but the same compound name might not actually be the same front and rear. Yet another unknown that makes blanket statements difficult to justify.
     
  14. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2019
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    41
    If you don't find any problems then it's fine but to me i don't think this behaviour is logical.
     
  15. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    6,651
    Likes Received:
    2,508
    No, you don't understand. I'm not saying what's right or wrong; I'm pointing out you don't know either.
     
  16. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2016
    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    1,311
    I can't follow the OP aswell. First of all, there is no such thing as a "modern" F1 car. That's a very vague description and isn't based on actual data or based on information about the regulations. And while we are at regulations: there have been atleast two big regulation changes since 2012, including big changes to tires aswell.

    For a more clear understanding we would propably have to check your driving using some footage together with driving inputs and Motec. What you desribe as "the limit" might be very far from the limit for someone extracting the most from the car and the tires - and trust me, I can tell that from my own experience. As I remember the Marussia, it is certainly possible to abuse your front tires by applying excessive steering angles. The question is for how long you will succeed with that. When Pirelli supplied their first tires in 2011, drivers had to nurse them extremely carfully. And that's excatly how you have to do it from my experience with the Marussia or the FISI to be consistently fast and to avoid dramatic drop offs, as the tires are extremely sensetive to abuse. On a related note to understeer and tire wear in rF2: I have been taking part in a BTCC race last week at Sachsenring and you can't imagine how people had to babysit their tires to get them over the race distance. So I wouldn't suggest that there is a general problem with the tire model in that sense.
     
  17. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2019
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    41
    I'm not asking for any driving tips here mate. i was talking about how i can abuse front tyres and they still grip without speed loss or understeer.I will upload a video showcasing the behaviour i talked about.
     
  18. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2019
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    41
    okay.
     
  19. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2012
    Messages:
    630
    Likes Received:
    641
    You can't abuse front tires in rF2, just like in real life if you abuse tires for too long they'll overheat and obviously you'll lose grip. There's no special formula to keep the grip abusing the tires, you need to be conservative and consistent most of time in races to make your tires last and behave in normal temperatures.
     
  20. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2019
    Messages:
    144
    Likes Received:
    41

    If real cars can take this kind of abuse then they are piss easy but they are not this easy as RF2 suggests.
     

Share This Page