[WIP] Apex Modding - 1970 Sportscar Championship

Discussion in 'Vehicles' started by ApexModding, Oct 5, 2018.

  1. Mauro

    Mauro Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    Messages:
    1,727
    Likes Received:
    2,568
    But this solve to have a more real driving style
    You prefer drivers upshifting and downshifting with full trottle without problems?
    Like official bt44 or m23?
    For me that shifting style like modern f1 is pure shit
     
    dazzer and The Iron Wolf like this.
  2. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    1,754
    Likes Received:
    2,515
    :D If we go that route, then I also suggest having couple of different difficulty tires: a tire that is "perhaps" easier than real, a tire that is "perhaps" very similar to real, and a tire that is "perhaps" harder than real tire.... oh well maybe fourth one - an iracing tire that is definitely harder than real tire. Obviously they all should make similar laptimes, think what differences there would be.
     
    dazzer likes this.
  3. Moe Faster

    Moe Faster Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    18
    dog box shifters, dog box transmissions, & dog box clutches (who knew??) . . . sequential shifting: the early days
    was actually quite messy sometimes. had to hammer it in to gear, still it would pop out, leaving the driver with that WTF look on his face.
    could be a form of realism for those with only flippers to shift with
     
  4. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    1,754
    Likes Received:
    2,515
    I have no problem heel and toe with slippers on lol, I even race online like that haha

    And true, gears could possibly jump out. Just like it happened there supposedly: https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/435191/driver-blows-up-1-3million-porsche-on-test-drive/

    I also don't recally it preciselly to what driver and if it really had happened to 917K, but I recall someone loosing LeMans late in the race, only because single mis-shift or gear jumping out of the gates.
     
  5. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2018
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    313
    There are 3 basic version of manual shift engagement designs to consider. If you're bold enough to read through this, its worth doing some google research to see pictures and learn more.

    Dog boxes were the original - gears and shaft couplings had anywhere from 2-6 axially projected bosses that engaged as the shaft coupler was slid on the shaft to engage the gear. 3 bosses each turned out to be the best design. That provides enough backlash for a reasonable amount of rev mis-match without excessive hammering and deformation of the contact faces on the bosses. Several Japanese motorcycle manufacturers somewhat perfected the profiles of the bosses in the early 60's and Hewland adapted that to racing gearboxes along with improved hardening techniques. Other companies including Ferrari also did their own developments. As a result the "rev-it-&-stuff-it" technique became dominant in the mid-late 60's in F1 and prototypes.

    Baulk Ring Synchromesh was first developed for industrial purposes and later adapted to automobiles. That's what most people are familiar with using in production cars. They use a conical brass clutch on the side of the gear and as the shaft coupler slides into engagement first enages with the peripheral dogs, generally spaced about 6° apart, which engages the synchro, thereby applying pressure to the cones of the synchro & gear which brings the mainshaft and disengaged clutch up to matching speed, and than engaging the gear to the shaft coupler. Some folks can still manage to "rev-it-&-stuff-it" but it beats the heck out of the gearbox and won't take long before damage sets in. These box designs were intended to give lower skilled drivers a better way to shift so long as they used the clutch, and when selling a production car mass marketing rule #1 is to design for the weakest link consumer.

    Porsche Split Ring Synchomesh was developed in the late 40's and evolved to be a significant improvement over Baulk Ring in the performance side of the fence. That's what's used in the 917. It far more tolerant of "rev-it-&-stuff-it" than Baulk Ring, but still prone to damage and not the intended shift method. It does allow clutch-depressed shifting quite a bit faster than most Baulk Ring designs, including the Muncie developed M21 & M22 gearboxes, (still one of the best Baulk Ring designs despite the 50 year age).

    In the 70's we had a limited range of gearbox lubes. Today we have semi-fluids formulated to both provide films that are both lubricating and grip properties by varying surface tension with localized heating. The friction of the cones locally heat the fluid trapped in the tiny grooves of the Baulk Ring, surface tension rises, grip increases momentarily. But we didn't have semi-fluids in the 70's, at least not until the late 70's.

    So back to the 917. To be realistic one would use an H-Pattern shifter for sure. A combination of "rev-it-&-stuff-it" in downshifting from taller gears was not uncommon at some tracks; but not LeMans. The biggest problem with shifting the 917 comes from the moving gates; the chassis had just enough twist that the gate plane of the shifter would move by 1/2" to the left or right depending on the chassis twist, along with a little bit fore & aft. As a result the driver had to shift slowly until they learned the best technique for each particular track.

    Adding to the shift issue was the early version of the engine was pretty much like a digital throttle. Blipping the throttle while clutched was OK, but opening to part throttle with clutch released had some hesitation particularly in taller gears as though there was no acceleration enrichment added, until about 3/4 throttle.

    I had a lengthy conversation with Brian Redman back in the early 90's at the 24 Hrs of Daytona when they brought out some 917's for exhibition. I missed them taking parade laps on the Friday before getting our car ready, something I'll always regret, but my learnings from Brian on my all time favorite car are among cherished memories.

    Personally I prefer paddle shifting. In the early 80's I drove a D-Sports racer powered by a Kawasaki. Originally used a lever, than tried a manual paddle shift (too stiff) and later added a Clippard air cylinder driven system with paddles and limit switches, along with an on-off hand clutch. While it had no way to find neutral (between 1-2 gear) I was hooked on paddle shifting ever since. It took about 50 minutes of track time to drain the air tank, but that only happened once when I forgot to refill the tank.
     
    Seven Smiles, leseb64, Corti and 4 others like this.
  6. Flatspotter

    Flatspotter Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    304
    Likes Received:
    48
    Fantastic update of an already great car! Thanks for all your hard work!

    Would it be possible to make the mirrors independently adjustable? Right now, they're pretty useless.
     
  7. atomed

    atomed Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2019
    Messages:
    359
    Likes Received:
    221
    Man, you are an encyclopaedia, cheers.
     
  8. yoss

    yoss Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2010
    Messages:
    920
    Likes Received:
    2,024
    yes that s planned
     
    jimagn likes this.
  9. Flatspotter

    Flatspotter Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2010
    Messages:
    304
    Likes Received:
    48
    Thank you!
     
  10. yoss

    yoss Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2010
    Messages:
    920
    Likes Received:
    2,024
    Hello rf2 world GRAB_203.JPG
     
  11. jonrarit

    jonrarit Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2012
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    23
    Wow that looks fantastic. Thank you for all the effort guys
     
  12. Tnadz

    Tnadz Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2017
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    32
    An amazing recreation
     
  13. tjc

    tjc Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    Messages:
    5,841
    Likes Received:
    329
    That looks amazing yoss. :cool:
     
  14. CatAstrophe_05

    CatAstrophe_05 Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2020
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    13
    I'm not sure if this has been answered yet but the wording of the first post confused me: will this mod be paid or free? Since you stated the 917 was a "free standalone" it made me think there were some implications of it being paid.
     
  15. yoss

    yoss Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2010
    Messages:
    920
    Likes Received:
    2,024
    That s still planned like this : some car remain free some cars come as paid content
     
    The Iron Wolf and Corti like this.
  16. ApexModding

    ApexModding Registered

    Joined:
    May 26, 2018
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    801
    Work continues. First "running" in-game preview:
    20200830132026_1.jpg
     
  17. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2016
    Messages:
    3,446
    Likes Received:
    1,961
    Would love for somebody to grab the pitsounds from McQueen's Le Mans film and drop them into a package for these cars. The slow chatter of the wheel guns, (did they even HAVE compressed air guns yet?) or even the banging of the hammer on the lug nut.
     
  18. Eric Rowland

    Eric Rowland Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    144
    ...(see Seppi Siffert) ask Brian R :)
     
  19. Highlandwalker

    Highlandwalker Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    1,231
    The middle of the rear wing is missing from the latest version of this mod, only realised it was missing last night. Really enjoy driving this car.
    GRAB_3593.JPG
     
    Corti and GeraArg like this.
  20. ApexModding

    ApexModding Registered

    Joined:
    May 26, 2018
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    801
    That was modified to be more appropriate with the actual car we want to represent. In the future we will also look to have a more uniform stock setup with optional garage tweaks (such as mirrors and removing the 1971 engine). From this angle one may also see how a PBR overhaul would benefit the mod but anything PBR-related is some ways away for us.
     

Share This Page