[REL] 1967 Endurance (Proto/Sports/GT) - modded Howston G4

Discussion in 'Third Party Content' started by woochoo, Jan 5, 2015.

  1. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I have done little bit of tweak for incresing lower speed sliding friction shortly after update due to extensive testing at Targa Florio, I have driven there so much, and just currently haven't had enough time. Targa Florio has many turns that gives tires similar kind of stress handling like the long C, the hairpin turn, or colosante turn at bridgehampton http://bridgehamptonraceway.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/UsE-THIStrackscan.jpg

    Also it is interesting how the strength of steering torque can give an impression of grip, I think I got some cars FFB on the light side, it could be something to get used to, more over it will always be lighter at first due to tires not being warmed and especially if track is clean and not rubbered yet. Besides that you could try higher caster value, it would inevitably make steering more solid, my thinking about caster is that it should be enough to provide good feedback, but it should give more power for a driver to influence steering rather than jut depending on FFB and letting steering to slip through fingers when rear axle steps out. I try to keep caster as low as it still gives decent feedback for particular car, the nominal steering strength value is also part of that. I would probably make couple cars steering bit heavier now.

    All this being said, IDK if it is noticeable, but I give cars rather good static grip (when contact patch points are relatively stationary to the contact surface as tire rolls). Tire grip depends on one more friction component which is sliding friction (when contact patch points are moving relatively to the contact surface). We can keep net grip just the same as some particular other floaty rF2 tire by giving it more static friction, but reducing sliding friction. It actually should make car to feel more solid, the adhesion limit more pronounced, but sharper. I think it is more realistic, because tire is being used more efficiently, you don't have to keep on massive drifts for whole track to reach best laptime, but keeping car tracking the path is more rewarding, going over the limit and having power corner exits is still fastest, mid turn it is better to attempt to keep cars at lower angles, and not allow the drift angle to grow too big too soon before the exit...

    Speaking of other cars. IDK about CanAm Mclaren mod anything, but CanAm even in the same year were much faster cars. The F1 cars are a lot lighter and lower CG of course, so they don't stress as much in turns. This being said, I need to check if Chaparral 2F imitating car really should be that much faster than F1 car of same year. I am quite unsure about that. A quick look at 1967 laptimes of Brands Hatch show that F1 should be several seconds faster. It would be interesting to look further and find out patterns of who is likely too slow, and who is likely too fast and by how much. I think some of our cars of this mod is likely to be little bit too fast, but I would suppose within a second or so.
     
  2. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I know Le Mans was the focus of the mod, so I'm not too stressed about the differences at other tracks. I've been using Bridgehampton more as a representative circuit of the day. Trying to balance a multitude of cars at varying tracks is nearly impossible. But a rough grouping should be enough. As always, I appreciate your's and Woochoo's efforts to bring this era alive.
     
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  3. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Thanks man. The focus of these cars is just like IRL - LeMans, well most of these cars. But they were extensively tested in many many tracks, I drove little of other stuff for this whole year... I have made a list of RL laptimes, and the best laptimes I managed to achieve in those tracks in rF2, some of those were very close or exact, particularly I had very good matches with cars that goes to represent Porsche 906 and GT40 MK1. I am planning to add the list of those laptimes to the .PDF that should have come with the update of this mod, but it was impossible for me to polish it properly in time, and now it is a bit too late to share it to make sense.
     
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  4. jimagn

    jimagn Registered

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    Never too late. I'd love to see the .pdf if you have the time and energy to get it to your liking. Want the assistance of a proof reader/editor? Be glad to help.
     
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  5. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    MotorsportTV is a website that collects vintage racing videos. One of them pertains specifically to this 1967 Le Mans era.
    although I can't find the link now that I'm at my computer. It is a paid site, but they have a WEALTH of various racing from last week to the 1930's. Ok, commercial over.
     
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  6. Chris Lesperance

    Chris Lesperance Registered

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    I remember when most of t he site was free. I think they are in the process of moving their picture database behind the pay wall. I went researching their Indycar pics, and most of it was gone.
     
  7. Eric Rowland

    Eric Rowland Registered

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    they called it the "light bulb" .... :)
     
  8. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Here is an image from Targa Florio, I never knew Chaparral ran there. Some Brit events, Le Mans, I may have to research more since most of my history knowledge covers the US racing with the 2c and beyond. (the 2c was my first sportscar model) I was probably 8-10 years old and must have seen it on some highlight show like ABC Wide World of Sports.
    [​IMG]
     
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  9. woochoo

    woochoo Registered

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  10. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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  11. Corti

    Corti Registered

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  12. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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  13. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Facebook has been force-feeding me historic racing images and every now and then this mod's subject matter appears.
    Oh happy day!
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Tires, I keep coming back to tires. I've driven most of the late 60's mods and I'm finding quite a difference, not in performance, but in feel. Mantasig has been reworking most of the physics for this huge carset, and they work well with Woochoo's Le Grand Cirquit. (which is what the cars were designed for after all) But I've found, when trying other tracks the tires really punish poor driving. Any oversteer into a corner will begin a rapid overheating to over 100°c. With cars like the Porsche 917k, you can catch an oversteer with a flick of the wheel and carry on.(their new Ferrari 512S does not have this but is much more lacking in feel) But this overheating(which goes ballistic if you get fully off the tarmac) almost dooms any oversteer as the flick of the wheel increases the temp of the sliding tire even further and catching the slide turns into a ride of usually a spin of at least 180° and often close to 360°.

    I would almost like to suggest two sets of tires, with the Le Mans tire getting most of it's heat from rotation and a 2nd regular tire building heat via skidding/sliding but not a meltdown with any sideways motion. Reducing the off road temp increase in both.
     
  15. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Tire is a device worthy discussion in simulation any day anywhere. In my defence, I would like to record some more videos of myself overdriving, which the whole point is to display how "overdrivable" the cars/tires are. I have already done three, like in this (increasingly overdriving as video progresses):


    You didn't mention the car, and they behave differently, but I think we know what you drive without saying :) It is possible that I have got the widest tire to have bit more heat sensitive than in should, but on the other it might not be wrong. I don't think there is issues with heating, as thats what tires do when they slide a lot. My philosophy of very wide tire is that it might be made of softer higher friction rubber, which would possibly be more heat sensitive. It is an option that it might be not, and for example there should be more load sensitivity instead. I might be addressing this in future. But principally the behaviour of car is principally correct IMO, they should like some powerslides, but excessive drifting should not be an option (especially for wide tires). You are welcome to try to convince me otherwise, for example find a footage that shows excessive drifting and I might have to reconsider my understanding of these cars/tires handling. Lets have discussion going.

    To adress other points of your post. Cars are indeed designed for Le Grand Circuit, but they are designed to run anywhere else not much less, just like they were IRL. Indeed at first I have an idea to have a tire for LGC, which was supposed to have better durability, but lesser grip, or harder compound. But I have changed my mind about it. The tires there are on the cars are not specificly designed for LGC. I think you find them easier at LGC, because there are less intense turns one after another and thats it. In my opinion the cars should be slightly demanding at overdriving, and I also have my own opinions about 917K physics and didn't try their 512S. But as I mentioned before, give me an example ofthese cars being driven harshly with excessive drifts, and then we could think further about it. And you said it yourself, that cars respond less forgiving when driven poorly, which I'd say is not unrealistic. I disagree that any oversteer will heat tires over 100C, but if it does it is not wrong and furthermore it is still possible to bring the car back as can be seen in video I have in this post. Speaking of heating off the tarmac when sliding, well thats how it is expected to be, if you get your wheels off the tarmac while already sliding, then sliding just becomes stronger due to less friction and heat rises further.

    I am also not sure why would tire build more heat from rolling resistance, and less from slides ? And whats the use of rolling resistance for LeMans ? Isn't it about less of it, thus harder compound with less resitance and less heating in rolling would make sense. But harder rubber would slide more and hardly heat less, however harder rubber might hold on to the tire better, which could even things out for its sliding behaviour....

    Reducing off track temp increase is not really a thing. Right now I don't recall specific parameters for that only, unless maybe terrain roughness, but it really wouldn't be specific for it. It could depend more on surface settings in track mods .tdf files. Eitheway, I think it is better to keep tires on tarmac, especially during sliding.

    You can see smoke here, which means there was good amount of heat:
     
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  16. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I KNOW I am going to lose any discussion about physics, especially with Manta. ;) I was getting frustrated at a shorter track where the Chappel(& then I really did try some other cars) kept oversteering on exit at a particular corner. VERY similar to the Ferrari 250 video. Even when I was aware of the problem I still drove off into the weeds more often than not. Swapped to the 917K and drove right around the corner with ease. Now I know the K car is years newer and tires underwent a HUGE advancement from 1967 to 1970+, but all I can think of is the heat skyrockets so quickly it limits recovery maneuvers.
    I drove Targa last night for the first time since probably GTR2. What an amazing effort. I drove the 917K and all around the circuit I kept thinking, as I dealt with surprise after surprise, I kept thinking, 'would have spun there, would have drifted off there, would have spun here' I don't want gumball tires, but I want the chance to save my mistakes. I'm gonna keep sampling the other period cars and see if I can find better ways to describe this.
    It's kinda like when the Nissan GT 500R came out. I said the tires feel backwards. instead of resisting and then sliding, they seemed to slide and then grip.(I have never liked that tire) One of the Devs asked me privately about it and was interested UNTIL he found out I didn't have data to back it up, just the feel I was getting. Same thing here on my end,(not yours) I can't substantiate anything except to say it doesn't 'quite' feel right to me.
     
  17. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Might lose discussion, might not lose. I am generally holding on firmly on what I believe. However there were several instances when I was not totally right, or persons whom I was discussing or arguing with wasn't totally wrong, and realisation came a lot later. In general good discussions helps, and is a win for everyone.

    I don't want to speak about 917K very much more than I did not long ago, but I'd say it shouldn't be very difficult, but not that easy. And certainly it is several years more advanced race car, but surely Chaparral and Lola were very much in direction of 917K already in 1967, especially the Lola.

    I would also like to point out that Porsche developed 908/03 specifically for Targa, so perhaps if 917K is so brilliant there, then something is too good.

    Speaking of this car pack and Targa. The only physics channge so far I did since last update was because of a Targa. As Targa consists mostly of slow and medium fast turns, I was a bit annoyed by too much slidign at slow speeds, so I increased low velocity sliding friction to have more traction through whole Targa, and I drove a lot there :D Perhaps you also have an issue, with sliding too much at slow turn ?

    As for tire heat rising rapidly when sliding, it is important parameter that causes you to loose the car as you ask too much from tires. But there are more parameters that influence your loss of car control, many of them are other tire parameters, but aerodynamics also play very much. Heat is more of a sideffect that you infact lost control, but indeed it also contributes to further sliding.

    haha, funny story with Nissan, you had interesting obesrvation though, I don't know if you were correct. Tire naturally work like that, they slide and then grip up because reduced velocity, reduced slide angle or slip ratio. But sliding that would rise grip in general like for example on dirt ? I think there perhaps are tires a bit similar to that there in rF2. For example, cars that run on rather low contact patch temps because they discipate heat very from the tire surface. As those tires starts sliding, they really can kind of slide into grip, because sliding makes them to rise to optimum temperature, and then once slide ends you have higher slip resistance than before the slide haha it would perhaps make sense for first minutes of driving, but there might be some tires that works like that the whole time. It is like if racing in the rain - purposely driving too fast and causing sliding which helps to keep the temperatures up, thanks to that result in more grip, and go even faster still. And thats how you have some chad who outperforms closest rival by 4 seconds in the rain, while usually they would be close match.
     
  18. Benn

    Benn Registered

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    Hi, has anyone noticed that in this mod, endurance 67, when you play offline against AI, they never stop to replace tyres? Even if you put tyre use option x5, laptimes do decrease and they spin, but the never pit. Tried this on many offical and unofficial trakcs, and it realy ruins the realsim and suspens of long races. Any idea how to make them pit?
     
  19. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @Benn Thanks for feedback. Will look it up sometime in the future. Although we feel kind of burned out, maybe we could manage a small update at some time not soon, I don't know, @woochoo ?

    This being said. Don't be shy people. Give the feedback if you gave time to any of these cars and they didn't work right for you for some reason. I am also clueless if I have done anything right, because I have heard nearly nothing from you, people.
     
  20. JamesB

    JamesB Registered

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    I LOVE them
    The only thing I REALLY would like to see changed is that for me on dark sections of track when you have opponents headlights behind you I CANNOT see the track ahead because of the dirt/reflections on the windscreen, that's on the proto 5.0+, might be my older eyes but I really can't. Would love to see that reduced, not eliminated. I have already mentioned that to Woochoo. I like all the gauges to illuminate at night as I use the dashboard not an overlay wherever I can (not sure if they do on some of these cars). Had not noticed the pit stop thing, in fact i am sure that I had them stopping at Le Mans the other night but maybe there is some glitch, If your race is longer than the fuel load then they don't really have a choice, I have been doing 30-40 lap races at Le Mans and they are fantastic fun. Will check the pit stop thing in my next session.
     

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