Discussion in 'Third Party Content' started by woochoo, Jan 5, 2015.
Looks very intersting.
I hope so. I just wanted to show that cars handle, are exciting and realistic.
How do you know there realistic, have you ever drive any of them?
You are right, I haven't driven any of them, so I guess there is no other way to observe how the cars work, or maybe there is ? WHile I would certainly enjoy if I'd get such offer IRL I wouldn't suppose that getting to drive a car in real life (even if actually at its actual limits and above) would guarantee absolute correct judgement of all effects that makes the handling of a car precisely. First hand experience would be absolutely amazing and priceless for recreating it in simulation, but it doesn't mean that the result would be 100% percent correct. It depends on ability of a driver to understand the cars mechanics and other effects, also what is he looking for in the simulation, I believe that applies even for best drivers.
There are more ways to observe cars and get the idea of how they work. There are available onboard footage of certain cars, or similar cars, usually not from sixties though, so have to take that in account, cars might be bit more powerful and bit stiffer, might have slight other improvements today. Onboards are good to get general idea of the handling, most importantly observing the driver inputs and car reactions. Another essential way to observe the car is to observe it externally, you must look at how car works from outside view, videos and pictures. Looking at cars from external views enhance understanding a lot, as it is better way to tell how car pitch, roll and yaw, it is easier to judge how car is like for moments like oversteer. as from inside it is just less apparent. Driver inputs can be observed from outside too, although not as greatly, but it can be still be visible how front wheels are steering, can see and hear throttle, can see the braking, how car pitches, and how it moves under braking, if it is dead steady, or if rear gets loose under braking, does the fronts lock... just so on and on and on. The videos are best to be observed from correct years, which are little bit limited. Pictures are another great source, thankfully there are a lot of great pictures made from the years the car raced originally, pictures are great because they put great focus on the car movements just frozen in time, so even if you are less observant it should be really hard to miss then how much car dives forward when braking hard, how much it could roll at hard cornering, how much it could squat at acceleration and at high speed, maybe it does even lift a wheel above tarmac when making a turn... I just go watch a lot of cars and try to improve my observation abilities, I constantly try to see more in available video and pictures.
Last, but not least - the data. I'll use any kind of data I can, I'll look at multiple sources if available to check if they match. Searching for plain specs of course. Listening to what drivers are talking in the interviews, read the articles, books. Look for pictures of cars mechanical bits, closer looks at aerodynamics. Trying to extract any kind of clue there is... Speaking of data, there is one bit of it which is available for almost any car - its the laptimes, important to mention that needs to be looked at critically, its best to get some really fast simracer to test paces in tracks that are accurately made, hopefully.
Finally (although there really isn't any "finally"), after all gathered information and filled certain areas of which there was data used, it is time to start guesstimations. I am sure that absolutely all of the simracing physics even at highest tier uses a lot of guesstimations. It doesn't mean that values are being picked up randomly. Usually there will be reasonable intervals of values which are reasonably realistic and other parameters of physics has an effect too narrowing the target point further. It takes a lot of testing and tweaking for guesstimations, and you are never completely sure. However, there are patterns in physics, that once understood in some cars makes the guessing more educated on other cars. I think I have obtained reasonable understanding for some particular rear aero principles, front aero was always more tricky to understand for me. For example, I used to think that 911s would have high rearwards aero lift bias, but later I have found some data in an article which suggested amount and balance of an aero for that car, turned out that I infact had to increase rear end lift, and the front end lift had to be very similar, it transformed the car ! Also improved my understanding of front end aero and gave good refference. After that I guesstimated aero for Costin Nathan, I decided that its aero must have made it understeery at high speed, not long ago in the website dedicated to that car I found info that it indeed had understeer issue. So cars can be refference for one another if you can get the patterns right. I have worked on that, and I keep working and learning.
Fainally (again), there are you guys, I have to listen to the feedback and decide how sound it is, how logical... Critical thinking, critical thinking ! Usually it takes time for truth to become clear, but good discussions are important to help it happen, there has to be a "battle" of one defending ones beliefs, but the principle is simple - truth will always be easier to prove and will get even further explored, while false can only get weaker as discussion goes on. I don't mean that I am right about everything, but I have to stand for my stuff, till proven wrong, if proven wrong. So I look forward your opinions and perhaps even arguments, if you'll find something unrealistic about the cars, I also look forward for people finding realistic things about the cars, I hope for that.
And what is realistic... exactly dead true to real ? Close to real ? How close to real ? It is pretty hard to define. I can't do that. To me realistic car is one that doesn't have anything massively unrealistic that would heavily alter its expected dynamics and performance. But then again I don't know how to put "massively" and "heavily" without going further into the woods and describing examples of great amount of different dynamics and performance, feel... elements that goes together into the car. Realism is also in our heads, who can guarantee that perception of realism in a mind of certain individual is not absolutely skewed. There are certain signs though - for example being as fast as Pedro Rodriguez while in fact online almost anyone would beat that person. Expecting cars to handle very well, is absolutely correct, but who can guarantee that a person does even have proper basic driving skills ? At the end I have just written an essay which is an answer to a very short question, the (proper) answer can not be short unfortunately.
The cars handling in the upcoming update are realistic in my opinion, I think they were less realistic before. I hoped it would be easier to tell with videos of me driving them, but I guess same observational skills are required to judge it as to judge real thing, so it doesn't work as some magic proof unfortunately. There are a lot of cars I had to deal with, naturally some will be more and some will be less realistic, I can't be sure, but I can only suspect which are more and which are less realistic, I have been working hard to understand vehicles physics, understand how to replicate them in rF2, tried to do best I can with all of of them, at the end it will meet your perception, or it will not, one of us will be more correct, one will be less correct. And thats it...
Very interesting and detailed. (Even if I have almost no idea of what you are dealing with. I'm just a driver ..).
I really like you manta.
I hope you will share your projects with us soon. Keep it up!
Just some fun news:
in mod news, i'm soon going to rework the car headlights and then we'll be pretty close to a release.
Should arrive before real-life Le Mans in September
1967 CanAm Monterey GP Laguna Seca
headlight layout variations in progress
Well done mate
Looking really good woochoo.
It seems likely that we'll be updating the 1967 Endurance mod this weekend, or the next few days (with 20-odd 1966s cars as a bonus).
Here is a relatively long preview vid with Sebring and Brianza. It's not "all action", but more of an ambient showcase for the cars. So if you'd like to watch it all, get a tea or coffee ready perhaps. I have a few youtube subscribers that like motorsport but don't do sim driving, so a video like this is a nice way to show the stuff.
New things for this version include the little globes on the sides and rear decks of the cars to light up their race numbers. I don't think we can actually add extra light elements to the car to illuminate the numbers like they would, but at least the globes themselves look like globes.
Slightly contrary to what I just wrote, a few cars do actually have electroluminescent number discs/gumballs. Those are easier to fake than a globe lighting a surface, so those are added on 5,6 (American cars), 19,20,21,24 (Italian cars), 37,38,39,40,41,66 (German cars). Many of the other cars also have one/two/three coloured lights for easy identification in the dark.
20mins, all AI drivers.
Sebring (mostly American cars) start, afternoon/evening/night.
Brianza (mostly Italian cars) start, afternoon/dusk.
Some attempts to make it look a bit like film (flicker/grain/blur/colour curves), and some low fps jitters (sorry).
Can't wait to get the "real" things in my grubby little hands at the Steam Workshop.
Nicely shows off the cars "porpoising" as the AI dab the throttle/brake/throttle/brake at a superhuman rate When are S397 going to fix that? Apart from anything else it makes replays look and sound stupid.
Combo Workshop Update! (2020-09-13)
1967 Endurance mod (v2.50) (with some '66 cars) & Le Grand Circuit 1967 (v0.80) are both updated on the workshop
Cars have updated visuals (woochoo) and physics (mantasisg), and icons for the new UI (woochoo).
Le Grand Circuit has improved visuals.
(neither the cars nor track yet have the new PBR materials)
Here is a 13min vid of the updated 1967 cars at the updated Le Grand Circuit.
It' s another one to have with a tea or coffee etc if you intend to watch all of it.
And previously posted in the videos thread, here are the included 1966 cars at 397's Le Mans 2020.
6mins of pretending to be Le Mans Classic, or Ford vs Ferrari
Follow the short and AI-driven story of driving a blue car and battling some red cars
And a pic of some of the '66 cars
Thanks to both of you.
A masterpiece that is so much fun to drive.
You are welcome, I hope you'll like the cars. I'd like to encourage anyone feeling like giving feedback no matter if positive approval or constructively criticising the physics.
At this very moment I don't have a time to write down every single change that has been done, and it would probably much too much to share anyway. There has been a lot of work for the physics for this update, I have worked almost constantly starting soon after release of previous version. There has been plenty of effort for more unique and more authentic geometry for various cars, with help of redapg tools created several different dimension tires and configured their compound/contact patch physics. Worked further on aerodynamics, suspension physics, gears, differentials... basically everything included into .hdv physics files for all cars. Worked on making AI more balanced, more realistic in performance and trying to make them more stable. Worked on engines adjusting their outputs, durability (overheating and overreving), removing unauthentic rev limiters. Tons of details and everything required to be constantly tested, researched, sorted out, tweaked, tested again, remembered, tied together and understood while keeping on just simply learning - just typical development.
I also currently have little bit of .pdf document in creation, that would help to get introduced to the cars, get better idea what is what and to get better understanding of the various aspects.
I hope you'll find cars handling properly and properly manageable, while also being more true and less false.
Physics are definitely feeling dialed in. Despite that, I've sent myself to the hospital several times in the past couple hours.
Just gave the Not-906 a spin around Targa Florio and allmost finished a lap after sending it into a house wall at the end of the long straight
I had a few moments but what can I say. It drives beautifully and the sound is just top notch. Maybe still a bit too much big block v8 sounding and not enough Proch-Boxer sound but it's still giving me goosebumps and it's nitpicking on a very high level. I found myself reving without reason throughout the lap just to get those nice backfire sounds coming off the throttle a few times. I remember the car from the HistorX mod and I allways loved the handling and the sound there and this version just captures this aswell.
At the end it just makes me wish for S397 to add a nice historic car DLC with some of those beauties with all bells and whistles. Why is no sim dev creating a 1967 WSC game with all the cars and tracks? It's allways GT3, GT3 and GT3. Stop the FE BS and bring on some real cars and tracks. *runs away*
I agree. It really sucks. AC has a quite a few Porsches, the GT40 Mk1 and maybe a couple Ferraris as first party content. Their modding fills in a lot! Found a fantastic GT40 MKII that I would really love to see here. S397 really needs updates to the transmission system to make it viable.
This is still the only "complete" car set, so I'm looking forward to trying out these updates. Would love to see this era's Sebring made eventually.
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