[REL] 1954 Endurance Sports Cars (modded Cobra) [v1300 2022-08-04]

Discussion in 'Vehicles' started by woochoo, Jul 28, 2017.

  1. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,740
    Likes Received:
    3,672
    @Marko I will look at it more accurately, as I can't remember the changes exactly. But from what I remember the Briswel aka Bristol car should actually have less locking up, and it's lockups were mainly because of engine braking being strong, which I did reduce by some amount. But I have to go to my other PC and check the change there.

    I wonder what do you mean by having this car "on highest settings", I have no idea what those highest settings are. And again it should realyl lockup less.

    I'll elaborate later.
     
    Corti likes this.
  2. Marko

    Marko Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2017
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    20
    Sorry i was bit unclear.
    Highest settigns for caster (like 6.0). Now i lower it to 5.
    About brake locking, in previous release, to overcome brake behavior, i have lowered the brake pressure to 56nm, in that case no rear lockups any more.
    Now, with new release, i kept same settings, and i have front lockups ( they are small, and even helping a bit with braking). Consider this as observation. I can try moving brake balance more to back now, i guess, if you have lowered engine braking.

    Marko
     
    mantasisg and Corti like this.
  3. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,740
    Likes Received:
    3,672
    Thanks. Yes default caster angle was changed, and I change nominal FFB torque too when I change caster, so it makes sense that now you personaly feel better with one deg less. Interestign that lowering brake pressure you win less rear lockup, this means that by default car in previous release had too rearwards brake bias or/and stronger engine braking. it is possible that at some tracks there is too much forward brake bias now.

    Checking changes. Bristol 450 changes: little increase of car intertia, +1deg base caster, +1.3 nominal FFB torque (+ means that it actually FFB actually becomes lighter, but increased caster makes it heavier so...), 2% less rear brake bias, less engine braking.

    Seems like thats it. So yeah theoretically you should be able to use a bit more engine braking bias towards rear, but afaik rear still is possible to lock when engine braking aggressively so it is brake bias is still affected by it.
     
  4. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2016
    Messages:
    992
    Likes Received:
    985
    Hi,
    How is the shifting implemented with those cars, is it possible to shift without clutch? Note that it is possible to have realistic clutch in rF2, it is just that not many mods do it (60s McLaren F1 @Devin worked on has it done correctly). Hope this is done with this awesome effort as well? :)
     
  5. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,740
    Likes Received:
    3,672
    Not sure if that is really possible, or I am just not aware of it, I have M4B and it doesn't seem to have it, it really has proper clutch ?

    I sometimes launch this mod together with rF2, it provides some punishment if you mess up with clutch https://forum.studio-397.com/index.php?threads/realistic-gearshift-version-2.62996/

    This mod is an eye opener, when I feel that I have mastered manual, this mod reveals the truth.
     
    Seven Smiles likes this.
  6. woochoo

    woochoo Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,325
    Likes Received:
    2,980
    This short animated film based on the 1955 Le Mans crash appeared on one of my daily reads a few days ago.
    More of a story than a documentary, but worth a watch :)
    http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/11/28/le-mans-1955-deadly-competition-a-short-film.html

    John Fitch, the co-driver of the Pierre Levegh Merc, is worth a read about.
    Fitch won the 1953 Sebring 12h in a Cunningham C4R, and drove the number 6 Cunningham Ferrari 375MM at Le Mans in 1954. He also went on to invent a highway safety barrier. Levegh drove a Talbot solo for 23 hours in the 1952 Le Mans before the engine blew (mechanical failure or a missed shift?). Levegh drove the number 10 Talbot in the 1954 Le Mans
     
  7. Sergio Loro

    Sergio Loro Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2016
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    1,371
    great film!!
     
  8. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,740
    Likes Received:
    3,672
    @Flaux 1954 cars has long gear engaging time on purpose, it is not going to get more delightful, in fact I wish it could get even more delightful in terms of being even more demanding to shift a gear - for example having to double clutch or to be really really smooth when shifting the gear.

    I know it takes few minutes to tell your brain not to throw in the gears as fast as possible, but rather to catch a good rhythm and feel the right time to do it, thats just how these cars are.
     
    Mauro and Flaux like this.
  9. Flaux

    Flaux Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,001
    Likes Received:
    417
    Hey @mantasisg, thx for answering! I usually do all of that in the Eve F1 cars. I know it works even without any of it (double clutching, revmatching...) But that's how it was done back then.

    So, I get the upshifts. That is easy for me to do, but downshifts...

    What do you want me to do, to get a normal downshift? I usually use different ways for different corners. Straight braking, I use the engine brake to help braking. And when I have to brake within a corner I revmatch so I don't upset the rear to much.

    Both doesn't work with these cars. So, whats the trick! :)
     
  10. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,740
    Likes Received:
    3,672


    Oh the engine braking.... easy to make it perfectly smooth, but should it be so ? It is valuable addition to braking force, but as a trade-off it can make handling rough. Hard to find any data figures about it for any car.

    I just went for a short session with the cat at Goodwood and that small German car at Guapore. IIRIC this later one is one of the most challenging in terms of keeping it stable under deceleration with downshifts, or even with abrupt upshifts.

    What cars in particular do you find too difficult ? Perhaps I could reasonably improve some. Or do you think all cars are like that, in my opinion some cars are way more stable under engine braking than others. But I haven't driven them for a while. Some cars could use improvements for the handling, but it is tricky as in simulation because truth is usually somewhere between worst and best possible.

    Braking in straight line and revmatching should make the trick for most cars, iiric. However, with some of them you shouldn't rush to downshift, let the revs drop 3-4K perhaps even more. Some cars would like not just simple rev match, but one hell of a revmatch, like really opening throttle fully (if you want to downshift aggressively). Sometimes light feathering of the throttle after the downshift could help to find the stability.

    I try not to give the cars so much engine braking, that it would destroy their dynamics. But I like to give quite a bit of that to help with braking, as long as it is possible to avoid negative effects of it. It is up for discussion :)
     
  11. Flaux

    Flaux Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,001
    Likes Received:
    417
    Hmm. I was driving the Jaguar from the 50s pack yesterday. Shifting down to 2nd for example is not that straight forward. I don't think the engine brake is the difficulty here, but the way the clutch engages/disengages. It feels like there is no modulation possible. It bites right at the start of releasing it, creating oversteer. You normally can release the clutch very gently to modulate the engine brake. But that is somehow not possible. Not sure if thats because of the clutch setup or the delays in the shifting though... Maybe you even want it that way?

    I sure can revmatch but even then it needs a big blip to get it almost right. By the time I usually go straight because I'm so focused on changing gears that I miss the brake modulation to get the corner. It is definetly tricky and very difficult compared to the f1 eve for example, where it just does what you expect it to do.

    If I would only understand what I do wrong... Usually I can drive anything with heel n toe or clutch modulation that is thrown at me, that's why I'm a bit puzzled. No problems on the upshift as I quickly understood what it wants me to do...

    PS: I feel like a driver talking to the engineer. Haha.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
  12. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,740
    Likes Received:
    3,672
    Interesting. I don't remember anything particularly edgy with any of two "Jags", at least can't recall, and I just had a go with one of them. Perhaps I just drive differently, or have different expectations.

    One thing for sure is that I never modulate the clutch, I just quickly press the pedal and immediately release. To my understanding clutch modulation is only needed for launching from stationary position, and still only when launching gently - for example leaving garage. I will have to try your technique + including Formula EVE as a reference, and see if I can understand the issue better.

    For now I'd say try not to do clutch modulation and just press before change and release it completely once gear is in. And do not downshift too early. I am interested, I will need to see myself, maybe tomorrow, what happens if you try to ride on clutch being released slowly with those cars.
     
  13. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,740
    Likes Received:
    3,672
    Interesting. I don't remember anything particularly edgy with any of two "Jags", at least can't recall, and I just had a go with one of them. Perhaps I just drive differently, or have different expectations.

    One thing for sure is that I never modulate the clutch, I just quickly press the pedal and immediately release. To my understanding clutch modulation is only needed for launching from stationary position, and still only when launching gently - for example leaving garage. I will have to try your technique + including Formula EVE as a reference, and see if I can understand the issue better.

    For now I'd say try not to do clutch modulation and just press before change and release it completely once gear is in. And do not downshift too early. I am interested, I will need to see myself, maybe tomorrow, what happens if you try to ride on clutch being released slowly with those cars.
     
  14. Flaux

    Flaux Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,001
    Likes Received:
    417
    I had a bit of time in the last days to re-try both classic endurance packs. I have a feeling that the (for me) difficult clutch behavior is simply down to the small, hard tires of the '54 cars. The '67 cars are easier in this regard and almost the same as the eve f1 cars. Clearly because their tires are wider. That doesn't make it easier to downshift the '54 cars, but it explains why it is, how it is for me.
     
  15. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,740
    Likes Received:
    3,672
    I still don't think that your gradual ease off the clutch technique is correct. Wait till 1967 pack gets updated, some cars may spin you out as well, such as Lotus 47.
     
    Mauro likes this.
  16. Flaux

    Flaux Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,001
    Likes Received:
    417
    Oh okay. Can't wait to try them, anyway. I'm sure I will be fine. :) Thank you for taking the time, though!
     
  17. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,740
    Likes Received:
    3,672


    Not exactly our cars, but doesn't they look so nice how they drive, and they do look like they handle rather pleasant, exciting and does have not that bad grip on the road that has puddles in some places.

    I know I would be enjoying driving these cars fast even being 50, 70 or even older man. Probably wouldn't be so with modern race car, they are for young guys, or slightly older ones who still has very sharp reactions. These older cars are much less unreal, very mechanical and natural.
     
    Corti, svictor and Chris Lesperance like this.
  18. pkelly

    pkelly Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    Messages:
    475
    Likes Received:
    273
    You are correct, mantasisg. The racing/driving fire was ignited in me back in the 50's and I was flagman, pseudomechanic and wannabe racer in many old and odd machines. At 79 years old now and with slower reflexes I can no longer keep close to the aliens but I love to still drive fast in all these wonderful vehicles so lovingly produced for us as well as the inspiring tracks/ circuits to drive them on. Bravo to the sim world we exist in
     
    Corti, svictor, mantasisg and 5 others like this.
  19. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,740
    Likes Received:
    3,672
    [​IMG]
    The picture is from 1955, in 1954 it was #62. It is super fun car to drive, to put it simple this is Miata of 50s. Triumph TR2
     
  20. Seven Smiles

    Seven Smiles Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,034
    Likes Received:
    1,091
    A friend had a TR2 and told me no-one had ever found the limits of the handling of the TR2, or at least no-one had done so and survived!

    Under most conditions the car is very responsive and forgiving, but it has some handling issues. The chassis, which is shared by the TR2, TR3, TR3A and TR4 has limited wheel travel. As a result, on very hard cornering, the inside rear wheel can lift, causing sudden over-steer due to the increased load on the outside rear tyre. This is particularly true with radial tyres; the original TR2/3/3A suspension was built for crossply tyres. The wheel lifting is more sudden than that of other cars, because it is caused by coming to the end of the suspension travel while there is still load on the tyre, so the load on the other (outside) rear wheel is a discontinuous function of cornering load, rather than just changing slope.
     
    mantasisg and atomed like this.

Share This Page