“ are rfactor2 physics broken” video

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by GTClub_wajdi, Dec 29, 2020.

  1. Robin Pansar

    Robin Pansar Member

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    I can see that you are not much involved in a team or competition when you bring up these suggestions. Forcing setups would water down the competition status a lot and absolve a big chunk of the team dynamics needed to succeed. Overall it would also halt the esport itself from evolving to something more professional.

    You pretty much answer your own question about the Virtual LM24h event. rFactor2 is a game. To master its mechanics you need to invest time into it, like any other game, which is why those who play it are generally better than those who don't. Real-life drivers do already have a good amount of work cut out due to their profession, but it's far from enough since a game isn't 1:1 with real life.

    I completely agree with you that some of the physics flaws in the game go against what you'd expect from its real-life counterpart. I do however not understand your thought process when you call those who use these physical flaws cheaters and seek to sweep the issues under the rug by limiting the freedom in competitions. Better to uncover the rug and clean up piece by piece, cause it'll get uncovered sooner or later.
     
  2. Highlandwalker

    Highlandwalker Registered

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    If you saw my first post you would have seen that I said publish all the exploits so that every body knows about them and make it a more level playing field so new comers to the sim are not discouraged because they can't get near the lap times and also for S397 to sort them out, so I'm not saying brush them under the carpet. I know what some of the exploits are but not all. I think the people who have found exploits don't really want to disclose them because they will loose their advantage which is a form of cheating which is in peoples nature because they want to win. I know that there for every body to find but some are just plain illogical and don't make sense, an exploit is an exploit no matter which way you look at it whether it's built into game or not. Your first point, I am competitive but I am pushing 71yrs old so it's just as easy for me to run at the back of the field with the AI as it would be if I raced on line so why bother to racing on line, I get just as much enjoyment racing the AI. Since my first post most people seem to be defending these exploits in some way or another instead of highlighting the problem.
     
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  3. Highlandwalker

    Highlandwalker Registered

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    The Cambridge dictionary meaning of exploit: to use someone or something unfairly for your own advantage
     
  4. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    I personally think that it would be a no brainer for S397 to run a continuous amateur type event with a rotating roster of about 4 or 5 fairly easy tracks, and a slowish low downforce car like an mx-5 with a fixed setup, or very basic setup options that should be shared.

    For those who play rF2 alot maybe you forget how unaccesable rF2 feels for someone with less experience. Especially from a physics perspective rF2 has a seemingly uncanny way of feeling almost undrivable when you first start out (or are getting back into it), and then all of a sudden at some point something just clicks and the phyics/tyre model feels (imo) so far ahead of the competition it's almost a joke to compare. But for whatever reason, until you get to that point were it clicks (and for some mods this "click" never seems to happen), well the driving model can seem really strange and unatural.

    Take something like AC for example, it feels great and somewhat intuitive straight away, but then even after a few laps it seems very simplified and dare I say pretty fake and lifeless (especially on throttle mid corner), whereas rF2 is the opposite, it feels a bit rubbish to start out but then as your brain breaks it down and can take in all the naunces, it all of a sudden transforms and feels great.

    My point is that maybe it should be the goal to try and get more people to that moment where everything "clicks" and it all comes together. Obviously when you fire up the sim you should be able to do whatever you want, but imo there should be a definative "start here" where the player is encouraged to use content that has been specifically designed for the purpose of quickly getting the brain used to the phyics and onto having some fun racing. More intuative straight away and less having to make all these set up tweaks straight of the bat just to find the zone.

    At the moment the content is pretty hit and miss and the vast majority of it probably wouldn't be suitable for a total novice. Even with many hours under the belt, it takes a good while to find a new car/track combo to reach that moment when it all clicks and you go from questioning wether you are even in control of the car at all to keeping the tyre in it's sweet spot flowing from corner to corner.

    Anyway not too sure how relative this was to all the previous posts but just saw the last two posts and though't I'd put in my 2 cents, cheers.
     
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  5. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @Highlandwalker you're getting hung up on the word exploit. Just because some people call it that doesn't mean that's what it is.

    If you look through this thread you'll actually see very little in the way of setup tricks. "Detaching ARB" seems to be the flavor of the month but I think that's partly because it sounds like a departure from normal settings: "Here's the available ARB settings... and here's detached." But, in all likelihood* in every car it's been used in the detached setting is actually just the lowest value - one more step down in the series of values, not some alien setting that performs some magic. And you'll find some actually fast people who will admit to not even using that setting while winning races.

    People not at the front like to think the fast guys have a magic setup, their equipment is better, just something that's easier to swallow than "they're better." I've seen it since I did some online racing in 2007 and it'll always be the case.

    If there's a known trick in rF2 it's to run lowest tyre pressure, but that's not an illogical concept. Lowest pressure (within reason) does give more raw grip, and anyone using that as a starting point and doing a test run will probably find they don't suffer the consequences they might have expected. That's a flaw in the physics, but it's not a hidden cheat.

    Fast game drivers will always be fast game drivers. I'd be happier if they all had to drive the cars realistically (which is what a lot of the 'complaining' has been about - and in general the fixes don't require a supercomputer to run but could be quite simple additions on top of the already existing the model), but I doubt it would make me any closer to them.

    *The setup screen can be made to show - and have - custom values, so "detached" could actually be detached, or some oddball number - but by default it just means the next value down. These custom representations are an opportunity for a modder to actually hide some exploits in the car, but there's no reason for S397 to do that, nor any proof they have. Meanwhile all non-encrypted mods can be completely checked, and any modder found doing that would probably be thrown out of the community.
     
  6. davidporeilly

    davidporeilly Registered

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    Hi
    We ran a fixed setup off-season competition in Formula SimRacing 2 or 3 years ago in the Formula Renault 3.5.
    The default setup was rubbish.
    The same guys won that won with open setups in the normal season and by about the same margin.
    Some drivers are just better.
    In my 2 seasons racing FSR I had access to the setups of winning World Championship drivers from my team. I was no faster than I was with my setup.
    Some drivers are just better.

    Thanks for your time.

    EDIT: I am going to apologise in part for my post here. The underlining and bold was just a bit of a parody.
    Its hard to summarise a thread with over 1,000 posts but in my mind a couple of things are important to know.
    The video in the OP is (sorry Ermin) just nowhere. A couple of laps on one setup, then detach the ARB and WOW! .015 sec or thereabouts improvement.
    If such a change netted that gain-so what?
    And did it even do that? To be scientific you need to be lapping very consistently and then make a change, check the results, then go back and see if you can go faster in the original setup. You need to adapt your style to the change as well, if you make it "more on the nose" with say a stiffer ARB you need to exploit that on corner entry and overcome any losses on exit. If you change aero settings you might need to change gear selection in faster corners, maybe lower brake cooling too. This then excludes "driver evolution" from the results. Then there is Real road, was that static?
    Then there is long stint performance. It is common in parc ferme to drop a click off the front wing to do qualifying. It allows you do be more aggressive on corner exit but it nukes the fronts so you cant use it in a race. So assuming it wasn't just driver evolution, was a softer ARB even useable in a race?

    I did a 2 session over 2 days ending yesterday on the FSR server for Nurburgring where over 120 laps I found 4 seconds of lap time. I was initially an embarrassing amount of time behind the fastest guys. Then finally I was just slower. I went from +6 sec to +2 sec.

    Alongside multiple changes to setup I used Motec analysis and replay office to compare myself to the fastest driver. Inch by inch with my own evolution alongside testing changes I found improvements 0.2 sec at a time.
    The result was I could do a 36 lap test race and not get lapped (tiny steps).

    What would I have done if I thought "oh well he has a hacked setup"?
    I think in a way its like the "Winged Keel" of the 1981 Australian Americas Cup challenger.
    It had small and very specific improvements but also had downsides. The team kept it mainly because it had the Americans spooked. IE the belief that it was THE reason they were faster. They kept it under a cover, every time they lost and were just out-sailed they blamed some fictional malfunction elsewhere. it was paramount they kept the myth alive that their boat was unbeatable in a fair contest.
    So make sure you have done everything you can do to find pace before you retreat into the warm cocoon of "they are cheating"

    Having said all of that I also agree with the above post that some fixed setup racing would be a good myth buster.

    EDIT#2
    My statement about the same guys winning; I will add one caveat, one particular driver did better. We deduced that he or his team were just rubbish at setup.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
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  7. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    A friend of mine (who is a really quick guy) always says the same.
    "I don't have any problem with closed setups, as long as i make them"
    A closed setup can be unfair, due to the driving style.
    When i use a setup of my friend i'm always slower tha using mine (and he is always quicker than me)
    Their setups are always understeering setups and i need to oversteer a bit to go quick.
    A closed setup is ok if you can adapt to it, otherwise is bad.
     
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  8. davidporeilly

    davidporeilly Registered

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    True.
    Some odd things can lead to preferences sometimes. I shared cars in endurance events and other drivers found my setup too oversteery.
    Eventually I discovered that I had much more centering spring on my wheel which slowed my inputs. The other thing was technique, I suffered from a bad habit of getting off the brake fully and back on throttle B4 the apex. So was always running wide, hence needed more oversteer.
    Patience on the throttle and some trailing brake and I managed much better.
     
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  9. Robin Pansar

    Robin Pansar Member

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    My bad. Must've skimmed through that statement, old habit.
    Fully agree that there might be people who want these things hidden for personal gains. I do however think a safe majority of the people in the competitive scene are very vocal about these physical issues and have/are giving feedback to people at S397 to make them aware of it.

    I can't see how using these "exploits" is a form of cheating though. Perhaps it's an immoral thing to not report inaccuracies of a game to developers when you are presented with the opportunity to do so, but even that is a bit of a stretch. To me, an exploit is something that's achieved through unnatural means. Changing options in the setup that's given by the game is completely natural. Why these "exploits" are quicker in the first place is completely logical if you have the ability to dive down into the data/physics, so it's just the current state of the physics in the game that make these options the quickest. In real-life you wouldn't accuse a team of cheating for setting up a car to go as fast as possible within the given regulations, right? In rFactor2 it's the same principle, only we are working with game physics instead of real-life physics.

    I think we come from two different worlds of the game, which is why our perspectives are very different. I am also over half your age, so experiences and priorities are very likely vastly different.
    Personally, I'm mostly involved because of the competition against other people, and working within a team to achieve that at the highest level. I have zero background or much general interest in automobile racing, it's something that's evolved a bit after starting to compete, so the interest is more from the spirit of the competition.
     
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  10. Bruno Gil

    Bruno Gil Registered

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    I believe this post shouldve been made ages ago. Unfortunately, and as mentioned previously, in part due tothe clickbaity title, some people will just disregard it and comeback to restart the circlejerk later.
    I suggest a new topic for this discussion. Although, we have already done that, and it didn't go much better did it...
     
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  11. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Whats the circlejerk about ? Criticizing physics of rF2, or particular rF2 cars ? The statement that fast guys will be fast anytime in any circumstances is absolutely true, moreover if default setups aren't total disaster and unfit, the amount of speed to extract from setup will be not much. It is always possible to double check yourself by coming back to default setup, sometimes you may go through all setup, keep on getting faster, just to find that once you come back to default - you can still get faster (that is if default setup is good). Now thats a circlejerk.

    This being said talking in this topic regarding the competitiveness aspect of simracing is small importance comparing to realism aspect.

    The origin of this thread is indeed not as high profile as it could be. But what I witnessed was that it ignited unusual activity of critical thinking regarding physics, and particular portion of nice discussions. Believing in any simulation is automatically an assumption, it isn't automatically wrong if someone has different opposing assumptions. Naturally some side will have better logic and more evidence. I dislike three things that is happening in simracing: sectarianism, consumerism, continually increasing bias towards competition rather than to car itself. We can agree on this - for competition the car itself, realism of it, is not necessary, fast guys will be fast. So if whole simracing lands solely on competition aspect, why would we talk about realism at all ? Why all this thinking ? Lets just assume everything is correct, can not be better, and take the blue pill = easier and happier life.
     
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  12. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    I was very conflicted after all those pages to tell you the truth or keep it secret.. but I think I have to tell someone. At the contact patch, the pressure that matter , is not the relative pressure, but the absolute pressure. The reason is simple: ground is not a gas. I hope you will understand why I had to tell.
     
  13. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Is this addressed to me ? I don't understand. Also, are you Scotty Kilmer, that guy is full of secrets ? :D

    Are you sure about that truth ? Why would pressure in the tire matter differently at places ? Isn't absolute pressure that matters all the time, and differential pressure is just a conventional reference point ? Shouldn't pressure inside tire be isotropic at all times, at all deformations ?

    If you have in mind that technically atmospheric pressure cancels out everywhere else around the tire, then thats fine. But at the contact patch, for example, due to 400kg load flat patch of 12x20cm would appear, the pressure would be N[kN]/A[m^2]=167kN/m^2=167kPa, and thats assuming standing still for 1200kg car with 50/50 weight distribution. Assuming we deflate the tire a bit, now the contact patch size is 18x24cm and contact area pressure is 93kPa. But where is the point that "ground is not gas" ? Pressure is there in tire to give it stiffness, it will not be affected by the space of contact patch, absolute pressure will remain being absolute pressure, you make it sound like if pressure of the tire would be different there.

    I think you confuse pressure inside the tire with the pressure of contact.

    Some more stuff to think about:
    Do you think increased tire pressure will increase overall pressures at the tire contact patch, or just will alter the shape of contact patch/pressures distribution and rigidity of the tire ? Also do you think if in case increased tire air pressure would increase contact patch pressures, would the pressures due to tire load (weight on it) add to these pressures, or they wouldn't ? Would contact patch pressures increase due to increased inflation pressure, or due to decreased contact patch area, or because of both ?
     
  14. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    I wrote this in response to the opinion that at 0 pressure the rim always ground, tire blew, people die. This is off course true in some cases but false in others, depending tire dimensions and loads. About the contact patch dimension, this is off course smaller as you increase internal pressure. The dimension of the contact patch give or take multiplied by internal pressure equals the load on tire . Atmospheric pressure influence the shape of the tire when not in touch with the ground, as there is a balance act of two forces. Of course tire construction influence all this, but in general terms this is how it works.
    In sg
    In sHort people get confused by pressure, and probably not using the I.S. mud things further.
     
  15. Raintyre

    Raintyre Registered

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    I guess you read that in a book and never did a experiment with a real tyre. The only load that a deflated tyre can bear is load = 0. Most of times the tyre falls under the weight of its own rim, no vehicle needed......

    (...)
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2021
  16. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    exactly. I can get the setups used by my team mates in GT Pro and Challenge as well as the ones used in the VEC.

    I will still be a second slower than them.
     
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  17. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Fast guys fast, physcs solved go home, nothing to see here. Simracing influencer asked, simracing influencer answered. Case closed.
     
  18. cristianuk

    cristianuk Registered

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    those people come with proof videos and you can clearly see that the roads are pitch black with rubber laid down why is nobody talking about that? Ermin laps includes lots of rubber as well
     
  19. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    Hmm, so what you're saying is that it could be a dynamic rubber problem? It would be great to try if at low rubber it's harder to do the understeer thing than with high rubber, and how effective it is
     
  20. cristianuk

    cristianuk Registered

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    i was saying they use too much rubber on track you guys dont have common sense
     

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