RFactor 2: Best overall physics in simracing... FR3.5: ATM, one of the worst sim-cars

I was trying to back you up Spinelli and find other reasons then driving.
You run a heavily modified ffb, and your test conditions are less then optimal.

As you showed, in the IRL videos the car's exhaust volume stabilises from the apex to the exit, then increases a lot, guessing the engine maps are close to the ISI FR3.5 that implys a gradual and steady application of the throttle to stabilise the car during corner exit.
In your videos your on a rubbered track and a green track, both should have more grip then the greasy IRL videos, but the way you manage the car inputs should still be similar.

As for the skippy, Saabjock, i couldn't say it better then Noel.
And are those some flatspots?

 

Good point and it's something that doesn't get brought up enough. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he's completely borked his ffb messing with too many parameters.

 

It is indeed a good point. I've never had that sort of weird behavior driving that car. It looks mighty weird.

 

He is not talking about lack of feedback, but about car dynamics.

 

However wrong feedback can result in a misconception of the car dynamics.

 

But he's being very specific.

 

quoted from the main download page:"It is very important to keep the throttle down while turning, as this will keep the rear suspension loaded and the car more stable. Weight transfer is also critical, and any changes to throttle input on entry or mid-way through a turn, which will shift the weight away from the rear and cause “lift off oversteer”, will often lead to a spin.

Smooth input is probably the most important aspect of this car, and any car. You must smoothly turn in, carefully feed in the power, try not to fight it too much in the corner, then smoothly let the wheel run as you exit the turn. Always be aware how much the car moves around underneath you, the car will not react well if you put a wheel on the grass on turn-in: That loss of grip will be devastating."

So 2 basic mistakes you made in this case:
1 You released the throttle mid corner
2 you were countersteering way to late or not at all

That being said the RFactor skippy drives like the IRacing Skippy 2 years ago but with even less rear grip off the throttle but it is easier to catch a slide in RFactor2 then in the older model of IRacing.
In iRacing (2014) the lift-off oversteer is still there a.t.m. but much less pronounced and the back end doesn't wanna slide constantly like in RFactor
Only when you start to push the rear tyres wanna swap sides.

In summary there isn't any rear grip in this rFactor version and the skippy is more suitable as a cheap drifting machine
Once you master it though you can drive any car.

Maybe Spinelli can give some insight or explain better which game does a better job? I believe iRacing btw modelled the regional version with regular tyres.

 

+1 Thank you

Again more denial. It's your tyre temps, it's the track that magically changes the way car physics behave. Now it's my FFB. LOL! Those videos don't even have anything to do with FFB. Car behavior is car behavior. You can see it from the videos. I don't know about others, but my FFB doesn't work while I'm watching youtube videos, lol.

It's like as if you drove the Skippy and someone said "if you adjust your FFB settings then the in-game Skippy will allow you to lift the throttle mid-corner all you want and it will still keep understeering". That is obviously a completely un-true statement as the vehicle behavior dynamics (physics) don't magically change just because of your FFB. Or "if your change your FFB settings then the in-game car's tyre model will magically behave like a replica of the iRacing or Assetto Corsa (or any game's) tyre model". Again, complete rubbish.

However, for everyone's info, I have driven the car with stock FFB, and the FFB settings I have been using for the past while - and in both of those videos - is Paul Loatman's settings (including profiler and everything) as of whatever his settings where about a month ago. I don't use highly modified and "weird" FFB in RF2; ATM, only pre-RF2 ISI-engine based sims give you all those tuning/customizability options like, for eg. different sort of slip-angle-to-FFB drop-off adjustments, brake vibration to aid in precise 4-corner lock-up feel and the amount of lockup (tyre rotational speed depending on vibrations or lack of), etc.). So I'm just using fairly standard - and even highly praised by many - FFB settings. However, again, the FFB has nothing to do with anything here. I'll keep saying it: the problem isn't the fact that I get into a slide, it's the way the physics dynamics are behaving once you get into a slide. The physics go bonkers. The fact people are mentioning FFB when it comes to these issues really says a lot about their general understanding of these sorts of things.

It's a physics thing, the way the cars behave, the way they move, they way certain parameters of the vehicle dynamics act/react, it has nothing to do with FFB, you can watch videos and see the behavior (like you can see in countless videos of countless cars in the game), you can see the issues even in a non-cockpit view (TV/trackside cam, all sorts of fancy youtube videos, etc.), it's purely a vehicle dynamics issue and has absolutely nothing to do with FFB.

[HR][/HR]

Completely agree. The cars tend to act the same way when you're not pushing them, as they do when you are pushing them. Hell I've even driven the Jim Russell F1600 for 4 days and close to 5 hours, and 75% or so of that time in the wet, at Infineon Raceway, and the F1600s don't have wings.

In real life, you can drive without either of the tyres slipping, no understeer, no oversteer, IT DOESN'T ALWAYS have to be either one or the other. Of course, once you start getting to those limits or doing bad things then that's a different story, but you can lift the throttle fully in real-life while hardly applying any steering lock what-so-ever and the car won't want to rotate like it does in the game. Of course, once you are loading the tyres then things can get REAL sensitive, but NOT when the car is pointing almost completely straight and hardly loaded up at all like in the above video. It just demonstrates perfectly well that things always feel the need to loose grip too early/too easily.

The grip limits come into play too early relative to how little you are "pushing" the tyre. Slips shouldn't start when you're going almost completely straight, super slowly, with hardly any load on the tyres, with hardly any steering lock applied and therefore hardly leaning-on the tyres and hardly loading them up. There needs to be way more raw mechanical grip BEFORE the car starts entering that slip-and-slide zone. The tyres need to have a much more natural tendency to want to stick and have friction with the surface rather than just slide as if they are elevated/floating in the air and hardly having any physical contact with the road-surface.

It's as if the game always either wants to understeer or oversteer. That also leads itself too a bunch of front-end pointedness. I also feel like this allows people to use really weird and super-highly unrealistic setups where they literally hardly turn the steering wheel and just use this super odd front-end-pointy-rotation-and-direction-of-travel physics engine issue in order to drive fast, instead of actually using the steering (with some slip and rotation, obviously) in order to lean on and extract the grip from the tyres, instead they take advantage of this front-end car-direction-of-travel dictated messed-up-pivot-point physics flat.

 

Yep this is true and since I drive a lot with the keyboard, this is the trickiest car to handle, but I somewhat manage it. I have not much problem with the FR3.5 though.

 

It has nothing to do with managing it.

I can manage the Skippy alllllllllll day long while posting fairly good lap times. Many people can also learn to manage the absolute worst car in the history of simracing (whatever car that may be). I could also - almost all day long - manage the original v1.0 iRacing Skippy. Infact, I hardly ever complained about that car which sooooooooooo many people couldn't even drive 5 corners in without spinning while I was competing in full race after full race - at or near the very front - without a spin because I would manage and drive the car accordingly regardless of how wrong and/or bad the physics may have been, but that's just driving around the problem and adapting to it from a driver's point of view, that doesn't change the fact that the car's dynamics sucked, regardless of how well I was able to drive and "manage" it. Managing the car just means you are doing just that, managing it, it has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the fact that the physics may be completely messed-up. You don't think I can just manage the FR3.5 and just baby it and not put it into those situations? That's so besides the point.

It's purely down to physics behavior, and not whether you can manage to avoid those scenarios or manage those scenarios - then you're just avoiding/ignoring the problem, or in the latter case, finding a way to deal with the problem. The problem still exists.

 

Yes, it should. Use proper techniques and it won't happen. In the video you clearly are not smooth enough.

 

That'll be because they're not the same car. If you are driving with keys, sigh, you cannot drive the Skippy in the way it probably needs. You need to bring everything you do much earlier. Much, much earlier.

 

RFactor 2: Best overall physics in simracing... FR3.5: ATM, one of the worst ...

Spinelli, exactly how are you gauging the load that guy was putting on the tires in that video where he dumps the throttle? The radius of that turn is comparable to the radius of the skid pad in the instruction video and in the instruction video he was only doing 35 mph. Why is everyone under the impression cars can't spin as long as your under 40mph. I would be glad to get some video of me spinning my car at 40mph with minimal effort. But why am I even discussing this. You no damn well from your own experience that it's possible to spin this car in real life just like he did in the sim.

I think Lazza hit the nail on the head about being able to wake up one day and convince yourself that something is wrong or right about a sim. I can also say I have done the exact same thing that he was saying about setups where one feels better than the other when they are actually the same setup with different file names. I've also spent hours working on a setup and continue to get faster and faster only to go back to the original set and get even faster. It's just so difficult to "feel" if a sim is really right when there is actually nothing to "feel" in them in the first place.

 

Agreed, I wasn't complaining btw.

 

What is the purpose of this thread?

 

I already explained, Noel. Watch the real-life skippy video (skidpad section) and then what happens in the above video RF2 skippy video. Massive massive, massive, difference. They are completely incomparable. I don't know how you could use one to justify the other, they are so massively different in terms of - before the slide - how hard the car is being pushed, how sharp the car is cornering, how much the car is being steered, and possibly the actual speed itself. They are light years apart and one video cannot be used to justify the other. I mean it's honestly extremely blatant when you look at the two different scenarios.

I do agree with you, it is DEFINITELY possible to spin, or at least rotate and slide-out the rear under 40 mph. That is totally possible and has nothing to do with anything we're saying. I never said a car cannot slip at those speeds. You need to better read what some of us are saying. Again, if a car is being pushed hard - even at 40 mph (or less) like in the real-life skippy skidpad video, then it can AND SHOULD slide on throttle lift. But if you're babying the car and hardly asking anything from the car/tyres,then those sensitive-input-to-sliding dynamics should not come into play yet because you're too far from even being close to any sort of car/tyre limits beforehand.

PSR, as per the OP, the point of this thread is to outline some quite major physics issues - some being a specific car issue, and some being a general physics engine issue prevalent in every car, no matter what, going back to at least F1 2002.

 

Some of you guys responding are kiddin' right?
Please tell me you are kidding.
I deliberately drove the car as slow as possible to demonstrate the issue.
Stop looking at technique that's inconsequential at the lack of speed and instead focus on the speed vs reaction.
No car....and I mean no car on the planet, will do what you are suggesting.
Watch the video again.
If you think that any race car will do this at that low of a speed, then you need to truly go back to sleep and continue dreaming.
I'll give accolades all day long when they're warranted...and you have received them on numerous occasions.
Do not blow smoke here...you couldn't get that same reaction with your road car at that low of a speed setting if you tried.
The car is barely moving and the tires are skidding with the back end rotating.
Are you kidding?
They're lots of authentic handling cars in RF2...this is not one of them by default.
Can it be driven...YES.

 

Maybe the right rear tire is not touching the ground because chassi flex was implemented recently and the car now has a bug? Always read people making compliments to this car physics in the past.
Both (skkipy abd Fr3.5)

 

"hardly asking anything from the car/tyres"
Weight management and throttle application...

It's sad, with the proper tests this could have dug out some valuable data.
ATM it's not going anywhere. Unconclusive tests, and the OP's driving is questionable.

 

I think that this may be where things are getting iffy...

In no way would I call the Skippy a "Race" car. It can be used to race, yup. As can any vehicle at all. There may be a series using them even. For me, it is clearly a training car. It has been engineered to easily punish "incorrect" technique. It has not been engineered to go as fast as it can around a track for any given spec. You can tell that by how effed up it's balance is, how precarious it is to drive. This is (compared to the other open wheelers in rF2) not what I'd call a race car.
Go to YouTube and search for Skip Barber Spin, and see some of the crazy behavior of the car. 40mph corners where you can see the driver having to control the back end of the car coming out all the time. There is that great video of a random corner entry spin I remember seeing here. It wasn't on the limit, car was nicely settled, no noise from the tyres at all, following the car infront. And yet, you suddenly hear the tyres pipe up as the rear comes round on the guy.

ANYWAY, whats more crazy is how this is now just using a personal opinion mixed with some very liberal interpretation of real life and sim footage to discuss what is supposed to be "fact" in regards to the driving. Me included in this. How on earth one can glean proof of throttle position through a video of a car, taken externally, listening to the exhaust sound...


Is this not a clear example of insanity?...I feel like it is XD