Dallara DW12 Indy car v1.63 (newly updated) Now Available

Try 1.63 if reporting an issue.

 

My apologies!

 

So a DW-12 should have lighter steering than a road-car NSX with power steering or a Clio?

3 degrees of caster goes from feeling like extremely over-boosted power steering to "normal"?

What is the decision that I don't agree with?

 

It's been there for a while, Tim. I've noticed that few cars after they've been updated lost ride height data and now with DW12 it also lost aero data. It would be a shame if it's intentional and new trend for every new or updated car.

 

No. It can have higher higher forces, when those higher forces are within the clipping window, the lower forces become lower forces. The force graph remains the same.

You don't agree with us keeping the forces within clipping range, and by default not using a faked graph to increase lower forces so that you feel more with whatever wheel you're using. Although the software does allow you to do that, as you know.

 

I'd guess it is a plugin change coming in the next build, but will ask.

 

Hello Marc,

Hope you won't mind if I intervene in this discussion.

For simplicity let's say that your wheel + sim can model steering forces from 1 to 10.

Lest say that a real life Clio has steering forces varying from 1 to 5.

Lets say that a real life DW12 has steering forces varying from 1 to 20.

That means that your sim + wheel can represent "realistically" a Clio, but not a DW12.

In the DW12 you'll have to compress the dynamic range of steering forces, so you may end having your DW12 having a lighter steering than your Clio at low speed, in order to give a feeling of the rapidly growing weight of the steering with load on the DW12 (only 1 to 10 available).

I think that is the decision Tim is speaking about.

If wrong please correct me.

Cheers.

 

It just made me happy there, Tim. If it proves to be the problem and will be fixed with that build I'm going to be a one happy bunny.

 

Temps/Camber Ques

question:

Is it possible to get temps and camber optimal with this tire model? Can't seem to get them dialed in like the AC Cobra or Palatov.

 

Please do--this wasn't intended only for Tim. I want others to answer my three questions, too.

You explanation would make sense if the actual forces I was feeling were equal on the two cars at maximum. The maximum Clio or NSX or Palatov or Megane, etc., are all vastly stronger than the F2 or DW-12 at all default settings. My CSW is nowhere near it's maximum torque capability and it is stronger than the average wheel, so it must be pretty bad with weaker wheels--no, those people often report great, balanced, realistic-feeling feedback.

If I change the caster on the DW-12, it mostly fixes the problem. Why do I not touch the caster on all those other vehicles and they feel like normal (race) cars?

And if you and Tim are correct, there is no way to scale the forces so they mimic the real car. A real DW-12 doesn't feel like it has power steering at low speeds or when stopped, even though the forces required to move the wheel are high at high speeds.

In real life the Clio has forces 2 to 5 and the DW-12 has 4 to 10 (if we use a scale of 10). The NSX should be 1 to 3 on such a scale.

I fail to see why this is impossible to implement when several third party cars already do it well (the ASR open wheelers for one)?

 

Marc I use also Fanatec Hardware as you can see in my pc specification and I'm also not interested to change for every car the hidden ffb settings.
But especially with most of the rF2 Open Wheeler cars I have the problem that my wheel tends to rattle and ffb to heavy clipping.
My solution for that is to raise the filter to let me say around 4 - 6 and the ffb multi as much as possible (regardless how much, but without get clipping, for measuring I use the pedal overlay plugin)

Of course due the smaller size of the formula rim I notice the effects stronger as with the standard rim. Maybe I loose some details but IMO IRL I can feel also not every small stone on
the surface.
Therefore it's OK for me.
I use the Fanatec driver 205.

 

I've noticed that neither the 1.62 version nor the 1.63 version have showed up in the launcher. I didn't even know the 1.62 had been updated until just now. The last update shown on the launcher is the D4.

Is it just my launcher?

*EDIT* To clarify, the new Indy Cars aren't showing up in the news section of the launcher.

 

1.62 showed up in my launcher and i downloaded and installed from there.....1.63 dunno yet can tell you in an hour when at my rig

edit: oops should read better......you are talking about the news section of launcher, think you are right there. but next to checking this forum i check packages every now and then and make sure to look not only at the local tab but also on the remote content tab.

 

Marc, I think you've missed the concept Tim has talked about. It's a design decision to scale FFB from 0 to 1.0 based on clipping.

Look at your own figures here: if the DW-12 gave you full FFB, and you want all cars scaled correctly, the Clio will max at 5 (half strength) and the NSX will stop at 3. You might think that's a better option, but it's not what ISI have done. They've decided to aim for 1.0 for all cars at maximum 'usual' force. That's all it is - a design decision.

As for the DW-12 itself, as usual more caster will give generally higher forces, so if you want to avoid clipping across a range of setups (including the very highest caster) you will end up with lower forces with less caster. So your NSX ends up with artificially high (relatively) FFB forces and the DW-12 with a default setup will end up with low. They could have aimed for equal force across cars with default setups, or relatively-correct forces across cars with default setups, which would then force people adjusting the setup to adjust the FFB to avoid clipping in normal driving situations.

Instead they decided to avoid clipping, and this means you will get a variation in general forces across cars. Of course the game allows you to adjust the car-specific FFB to counter this.

On top of that, the game lets you specify your controller max torque capability to completely sidestep this issue and get real forces from all cars your hardware can properly simulate.

It's the design decision you don't agree with or don't expect; it's not a mistake (you mention 'fixing the problem', but it's only a 'problem' because it's not what you want. It's not actually incorrect)

(and, earlier you mentioned non-linear FFB as a possible alternative, which I think you'll find a lot of people wouldn't like - but I think the game can do this as well?)

 

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I am clearly missing something...or else I guess I am an anomaly in terms of thinking. I think what you are describing, that I did not pick-up from Tim's reply, is that all cars will have the same maximum force, according to one's hardware, regardless of what the steering weight in the real car might be (obviously vastly different between a DW-12 and a road car). Assuming I am understanding that correctly, then yes it is a "decision" I disagree with because it runs completely counter to the concept of a simulation.

If I am to understand Lgel's comments, because certain cars have such high maximum forces (e.g., the DW-12), and linearity must be maintained, the result is that lower-scale forces may be quite weak. I think the part that I don't understand the most is in my example above, I said DW-12 would range from 4 to 10. Every car (in real life) doesn't have the same starting point of zero or 1, just as they don't have the same maximum. For example, the minimum steering weight in a DW-12 would exceed the maximum steering weight in a NSX. Surely this can be simulated with some sort of formula or algorithm, rather than having the ridiculous situation that in rF2, the DW-12 requires less steering effort than the NSX (during normal racing/driving) just because the total range of forces on the DW-12 is larger.

I am probably still missing something obvious, so anyone feel free to set this straight.

 

Could you elaborate on this a bit? Of course I would prefer to sidestep all of this and get "real" forces. I bought a very expensive Fanatec wheel and would prefer to take advantage of it's capabilities. My wheel could probably break my finger or even wrist at maximum force if it got caught the wrong way. I have no concern that things can't get cranked-up. Please let me know what I should do...but...

Before I change anything, I have to explain that the FFB from 90% of the cars out there is absolutely perfect (meaning I can't ask for better or more) and I never fiddle with settings or use the multiplier. Out of the box, the ASR open wheelers are sublime. The Palatov D4 is exciting. The Clio and Megane and Brabham are like driving real cars. The Cobra is phenomenal. The F2 is abysmal and the DW-12 is awful until you change one caster setting and then it is lovely feedback, just a bit too light.

I always struggle with the concept that there are fundamental settings off on my rig when all the cars (and many more) I just listed have 10/10 FFB outof the box, no changes or adjustments. The sublime FFB, which has been there since day 1 in the historic open wheelers and Megane and others, is the number one reason I prefer rF2 over every other sim. It's also the reason I get perturbed when one or two cars feel completely bonkers even when others are raving about the great FFB in the same cars (as I do about all the other cars).

Sigh...

 

i wish i could Mark but my knowledge of the English language isn't good enough to try and explain. But i think i understand the decision and i think it is the right way.

edit: imho i think this way you will feel the most of what the car is doing but i agree with you this that when you compare different cars back to back it feels odd. That is why i will never use 2 different cars at the same day (uhm mostly nights *cough* )

 

Your English was more than sufficient!

But I do prefer to use more than one car per day or night, so that may be why we disagree

 

You'll find this is your saved controller file:

"Steering torque capability":2.5,
"Steering torque capability#":"The maximum torque capability of the wheel (in Nm, obviously)",

 

I know about that setting, but how does one know what to set it to and what exactly does it do related to this conversation topic?

Of course it would be easier if we just told rF2 what wheel we were using and it set the appropriate value, but nothing is ever as it should be.