What I believe to be wrong with the RF2 tire model / grip levels / lack of control

The main difference between RF2 and a real car or even NKP is that a real car is still largely controllable way into the red parts but at the expense of the tires and forwards momentum , Its also the case that in a real car and even NKP RBR that you can be in the red parts with the rear tires and still put down throttle and control the car.

The main point of this post is to hi-light the issues I believe exist with RF2 at this point in time and present a possible solution.

Granted this is a drastic over simplification of things I just want RF2 to have car behaver on a par or better than NKP when balancing on the edge and going slightly over the tire grip.

I'm sure the ISI coders can have a chuckle at this post

 

Have you seen this clip: LINK ? Throttle put down and sliding all the way through turn one. And it was intended, not accidental.

 

Hi, i tried today rFactor Trainer at mills in the wet. Doesn't felt right to me, especialy at slow speed, to much drop off and hardly regain of grip. Realy strange behavior, you can try your own.

 

Yes , you can see that the angle of that slide is so incredibly negligible and even then the car would have been very unstable , its also the case that this is only possible on very high speed and prolonged corners , I would say that this slide is still taking place within the green margins of the digram I showed and is only posable because of the high speed.

If you were to do that slide and be required to switch to the other side say for a Chicane then the car would have gone crazy and very unstable.

When doing the type of drift you did there , it feels very much locked into that slide rather than having multiple degrees of slide to chose from and there is no real precise control of more or less angle to the slide once it has started.

Obviously when driving fast the general objective is to avoid getting into slides but it should be the case that the car maintains good control and stability whilst sliding even when on the throttle this gives the margin of error required to test out track conditions or make offline overtaking moves.

the only time you see real cars behaving as RF2 cars when sliding is when the track is waterlogged and the cars are aqua planing.

 

We've covered this a few times in responses on the forum. And there's now two threads basically discussing the same thing that I have seen just today? There are some contact patch grip settings to be finalized.

 

Do you think the contact patch grip changes will result in more car stability ( driver controllable) when at the outer limits of grip similar to that of real life or NKP ? ( or maybe better than NKP )

Do you agree with the general gyst of what I am saying about the gray areas and how they are the most important parts to get right in a race driving simulator ? ( assuming the green areas are already right as they are for the most part in RF2)

finally would you agree that the grip and the way the cars behave in the current build 101 and old builds when the tires begin to give out is not very realistic , in the sense that there is a real lack of stability and driver control ( compared to real life or NKP) when starting to slide.


The thing is RF2 loses grip (in general) where I would expect the real cars to the issue is with the control of cars and how they move when they begin to lose grip at the top end and what the driver can do to the car using throtel and stearing when in these conditions close to the top or bottom of that graph.

I realise it is not an easy problem given that to my knowledge no developer in the world has managed to find a method that truly encapsulates the full spectrum of car movement and tire grip even with a fictional car. Though I believe at this point in time NKP is the closest.

Thanks for taking the time to reply !

 

What wheel are you using Jameswesty?

 

http://www.dinodirect.com/streering...138&siteID=febwRJxqGzU-QqtxBPlY83h.T_RLGEd.lA

joking , I'm using a G25

What I have described and talked about above is separate to FFB if you want a video of me proving I can drive a driving simulator then I can provide that , FFB on or off.

In fact I have been meaning to make a video about the different physics in driving simulators I'm just waiting for RF2 Pcars and AC to get along in development.

 

doesnt prove anything im afraid.
you've gone into the corner at overspeed, and just used the weight transfer from rear to front to bring the car round.
Also. you couldnt power out of it.

once the back end started going, you couldn't put any throttle on, you had to wait for the Skid to stop, before applying throttle again.

This video actually highlights one of the fundamental problems. You cannot do power on oversteer, and power out the corner - like you can in netkar pro, like you can in real life.

 

"I reject your reality and substitute one of my own!"

Check out the slip angle graph here. It's an excerpt from 'How To Make Your Car Handle'. It clearly shows with definitive proof that all racing tires fall off much more quickly than either normal street or high performance street tires. Yeah, ok, so it doesn't give units or scale, so we don't know how accurate it truly is. My "point" is, though, (as weak as it may be) that we only have racing tires so far in the game--which are going to fall off much quicker--so, you can't take what you feel from street tires and extrapolate it to how the cars should react in the game.

Using other games as a point of reference doesn't mean very much, either. Unless they've publicly shown that their in-game data matches measured data, I would advise against taking it as gospel, as "good" as it may feel. Also, using RBR as an example has almost no bearing whatsoever, as every car in that game are either AWD or FWD cars, which will naturally pull you through a turn. (I feel like I've had to make this point several times on these forums) Plus, it's physics are clearly tuned more toward the linear falloff nature of dirt.

 

I am 100% with your idea, Jameswesty.

 

Race tires may fall off faster and not allow as much angle before total loss of car control compared to road tires but a skilled driver can drive most race cars prity much sideways if they wanted to , on top of that RF2 cannot do basic things like power out of a corner whilst applying counter stear and sliding.

I'M NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT DRIFTING OR GOING MENTAL ITS SPECIFICALY THE AMOUNT OF CONTROL OVER THE ANGLE AND DIRECTION OF THE CAR THE DRIVER HAS WHEN THE TIRES GET INTO A STATE OF LESS GRIP. ( that's not shouting lol )

Have you ever driven a track day car , go cart or watched how race cars move ?

you can see the same characteristics in ALL CARS different tires and set-ups simply magnify or lessen one or more of the given characteristics of the car but in general you still have a car that drives like a car. RF2 cars simply don't drive like cars at the point at which you get to the top of the tire curve.

 

Interested to know what you think of Historix stuff.

 

Yah the old cars are not so bad , Just as the Skip barbers are good in i racing , it would appear that when it comes to cars that are nearly always in a slide its much easer to simulate them.

 

I live in a tourist town, so yes, of course, I've driven go-carts before . In fact, the last time I drove one was just after it had rained. Everyone else was spinning coming around the last corner on the little track. It'd just snap on them, and around they'd go--there was absolutely nothing progressive about it. I also watch nearly every televised F1 session (i.e. P2, Qualy, Race...ok, sometimes I don't watch P2). And I have never seen a sustained controlled power drift--they just don't do it. I do also catch bits and pieces of NASCAR races...and every time I see one of them even start to get sideways, they're beyond control. I also watch some GT racing, and it seems to be the same story--either the car looks well in control, or it's sliding uncontrollably--you never see them doing big power drifts, hanging the backend out, either. If you can find some videos of what you're trying to describe, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, I feel like maybe I'm totally misunderstanding your counterpoint.

Good discussion, btw, even if it is a bit redundant!

 

Yeah, that's my understanding.

 

It's also easier (in my opinion) to feel cars which slide, and therefore, to drive them. I've always had a lot of trouble driving cars with high downforce due to a lack of 'feel'. Although I have recently had a bit of a different point of view with the F2 car, the fact is with a downforce car, you are driving past the mechanical grip of the tire, you can't (or I can't) really feel the aero grip pushing the tire into the road until you have it - or lose it. IMHO there's an argument about whether this is a simulation problem, or a car problem (regardless of simulation). From the sound of it, you might actually have the same issue I do. It took me a long time to recognize it.

 

This is a point I would like to bring into the discussion.

Your comment here sums it up. A SKILLED DRIVER. Know I am not aiming this at you personally this is a VERY generalised impression I have about sim racing.

It appears that EVERY sim driver considers themselves to be of the same level of these "skilled drivers" in real life, relatively speaking.

People see Senna, Lowndes, Jimmie Johnston doing things and go...HEY I cant do that in a sim... THIS CANT BE REALISTIC.

But, maybe just maybe, we all suck in the world of sim racing in a relative sense. Another words the real world Senna, Lowndes and Johnston are the equivalent of our Huttu, Marsh and <insert appropriate name of Alien here>.

I for know I am not at that level, I run out of talent way before I approach that level. I see those guys doing things with a sim car that I just cannot believe or replicate. Just like I doubt most of us (if not all) could do anyhing close to what the real world guys do.

Quoting numbers is pretty pointless in this kind of thread (and because graphs are based of theoritical numbers in this case it rolls to that) because, from various other blogs/thread/articles all over the web, it is near impossible for a tire manufacturer to provide specific figures, let alone someone trying to replicate them in a simulation.

But that point about relative skill level I think is a very important thuoght to consider...although I am sure that someone will "prove" me wrong.

 

I've said this before, but some of us have done INXS of 20-40 000 laps, so at some point we should become very good.

 

Sorry guys I strongly disagree. I feel like can power out counter steering/sliding almost any corner/car in rF2 (OK let's exclude Clios ). Actually on some vehicles it feels too easy to control slides and maybe because tire modeling isn't 100% finished yet. That said must admit I compare to other sims not real-life racecars.

So the ultimate question is why me and why not you? If you ask me the answer is: roads here in Finland are icy and slippery so partly therefore I'm simply more skilled driver. Like they said to Massa; he's faster than you. But I honestly think there is something else/more.

First of all what steering ratios you guys are using? I like 9:1 which is pretty fast (modern F1 has ~10:1 and some drifing cars even ~5:1 to what I've read). What I do is first go to garage and set the steering lock to max. Could be like 21 degrees for Formula Masters. Then I calculate simple formula; steering lock * 2 * steering ratio = steering range. In rF2 the steering lock is center to lock so that's why it has to be multiplied by 2 to get the lock to lock. So the calculation would be in this case; 21 * 2 * 9:1 = 378 degrees. Then I go to Settings -> Controls, change wheel range to 380 degrees and make sure "Vehicle Set" is disabled. Of course this only works for wheels which steering range can be changed by the game (for example Logitech G25/27). One may say it's unrealistic to change steering ratio to other than what's in real-life but then again how realistic it is to sit on a chair watching some LCD screen while turning fake wheel and pressing fake pedals. I think we must compensate.

Seconds opinion goes to steering linearity. I think a non-linear steering can mess your steering accuracy. Maybe one can get accustomed to it but I don't like it at all. The other closely related thing is speed sensitivity and strongly advice to keep it off. Maybe one can get accustomed to this too (after long practice) but I think it's killing the accuracy.

Third thing to consider would be force feedback. Some people like to tune it down but I wouldn't recommend that. In rF2 I feel it does part of the slide correction itself. I think rF2 does excellent job by giving info via FFB what the front tires are doing. Some have said FFB should inform rear tires too, locking the brakes, etc. but I don't like the idea (other than front-wheel lock which can be felt on wheel) and propose it would be done with tire sounds.

So the fourth thing is tire sounds. I always tune tire volume up so I can hear what tires are doing. It's a very important indicator for me to be able to drive on limit. I think this is maybe the most important "replacement" for not be able to feel G-forces in simracing. So IMHO it should be one of the top priorities when creating racing simulations. I'd like to propose front and rear tire sounds should be separated somehow. Of course it's easy if you have surround sound system available but if not then maybe for example rear tire frequency would be artificially lower than front?

Fifth but not the least are car setups. I've found myself changing differential settings for many cars in rF2 - particularly Formula Masters. Try lowering power side gradually even down to 15%. Another common setup change I made is lower the rear rollbar. The rule-of-thumb for Formula Masters could be to set rear rollbar to 50% of the front rollbar. Of course one cannot exit corners flat-out on huge slides with these kind of vehicles so be very gently with the throttle. These cars have such a small steering lock so it's virtually impossible to do big slides without spinning (or by locking the front tires to straighten the car).

I found iRacing much more difficult to drive than rF2. Felt that almost every car had a snap-oversteering and slides were very hard to control. However with some cars the slides felt like pre-scripted and not realistic at all. Don't know if they have altered the physics on some cars but really don't like if racing simulation has those kind of features. For me it's laws of physics what distinguish simulation from arcade.

However iRacing doesn't allow to change steering ratio so the slow steering may well have been the key factor for me to find iRacing cars harder to control over rF2. On the other hand rF2 cars and FFB feels so much more "alive" compared to other sims I've driven in the past. Driving car in rF2 feels so natural so it can't be wrong - at least not much?