What motion sim should I buy? (budget 4000€)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by momoracer, Jan 12, 2018.

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  1. momoracer

    momoracer Registered

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    Maybe 5000€ if really really worth it.

    I want to take my sim fun to the next level in the next 2 years or so. I will get on the VR 2nd gen and add in a sim motion and I must start researching now. I want it "ready to run" because I don't have the space, time or knowledge to go DIY.

    There are 2 types of sim motion machines:

    1) Seat movers (example, the Next Level Racing V3). This type of machine only moves the seat, not the wheel, shifter and pedals. These are limited to 2DOF as far as I know.



    2) Full motion: These move the entire thing (seat, wheel, pedals, shifter). Example: The ProSimu T1000.



    I would really go for the T1000. I don't think you can't afford missing on the traction control feel given by the extra DOF compared to a 2DOF, that must feel great and add deeper feel compared to not feeling traction loss at all. 3DOF seems like the best bang for the buck, not sure how 4DOF or 5DOF would feel and if it's worth the extra money (and also extra money on the electricity bills, extra noise due more actuators, extra money on fixing dead actuators in the long term...etc)
    I would be typically worried that the actuators aren't snappy and fast enough but it seems the T1000 has a short range of motion and it's really subtle which should be enough to trick your brain into feeling G forces and due the short-ish range of motion you shouldn't feel lag even if it uses budget actuators, compared to ridiculous things like these:



    which require super fast and snappy actuators in order to not lag + a lot of electricity.

    The only thing I don't like about the T1000 is the noisy actuators. They resemble a pack chirping birds and that may be too irritating. Wouldn't like to need to wear headphones all the time while playing. Also hopefully the next VR headsets don't add the supraural headphones which are annoying as hell, I would like circumaural isolating headphones. I definitely don't want the weight of my own Seinnheiser headphones+VR headset at the same time...

    So these two are the options im considering. What do you think?
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  2. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Disclaimer: I haven't tried any of these.

    I suspect the most natural feeling would be a simple seat pivot based on excessive yaw accelerations. I'm pretty sure I'd be prone to motion sickness and just wouldn't appreciate the kind of 'feedback' given by all that tilting around, because for example you're going along on the straight, slam on the brakes, and what happens? The seat tilts forward, yes, which once you're there sort of feels a bit like you're being pressed forward due to braking forces (but realistically, are you even tilting 10°? So a small redirection of the 1g you're working with...). However, what happens initially? The seat accelerates (tilts) forward, so the first thing your head (ears) notice is being pushed from behind.

    With that in mind I also doubt that small mid-corner accelerations (representing grip loss at the rear) will feel natural. In my limited real life experience you can feel the back end of the car moving before anything else, through the seat, and I think a subtle rotation would work best to simulate that.

    There was a video floating around a few years ago of flight sim stuff, where someone changed the approach from trying to tilt the entire platform around all over the place (again trying to utilise gravity at relatively low angles to simulate multiple Gs in different directions), to having the seat and backrest become more concave during lift (so you feel more 'pressed in' to the seat) and more convex for low-G moments. It was said that it did a better job of tricking the brain into believing there were actual forces at play, rather than all that getting thrown around and having your head accelerated all different directions (relative to your body) every time.

    So I don't know if the conventional approach to this is really the most suitable. It's impressive to watch, and extra feedback is cool, but I think the way they're doing it you sort of have to learn which cues to look out for, instead of having the same ones as real life. And I'm sure you can do that, and it's fun and helps to drive once you're used to it. But if that detachment from what happens in real life does bother you at all it's a lot of money for the privilege.
     
  3. woochoo

    woochoo Registered

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    I've not heard of that until now. sounds interesting.
    I've also never tried a motion system
     
  4. momoracer

    momoracer Registered

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    Im not a physicist so I may not get what Lazza is saying, but the idea is to use the motion systems wearing a seatbelt so it enhances the experience and feels you are being pulled in the right directions (seatbelt is not there to make it more fancy like wearing a racing suit or something which is not really necessary, it is part of the simulation process).

    Also this guy added the GS-4 seat on top of the V3 platform, is this similar to what you were talking about?



    And this one looks sick but probably costs a ton:

     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  5. Beef36

    Beef36 Registered

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    Here are a small number of motion platforms. There are plenty of other ones. I tried to use links where you can see and hear the platforms in action so you can get a better appreciation.

    I've tried a few of them. Some are noisy, some are expensive but nearly all of them make the racing simulator feel alive. Racing without my motion platform activated feels boring.

    However none of them are realistic. So if you want fun, get one. If you want realism then you will be disappointed.


    Accelid:

    Atomic Motion Systems:

    Canis Engineering (XBox and Playstation):

    CKAS:

    D-Box:

    DoFReality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoacdkA9aGY

    Frex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMiUH2RpjWU

    MotionHouse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KorUjzakUpk

    Next Level Racing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmPvDbGU5NU

    Pro-Simu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg_0HfRXCl8

    Simcraft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOyt0Vao9so

    SimXperience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=src5UrJCOc4

    Sirmaf: https://www.facebook.com/imsimracing/videos/1288522167931095/

    TopSpeed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md_GxZ97YbA

    Combo Platforms

    SimCraft (Universal Mounting Platform): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l60hQBR2xU8

    D-Box and SimXperience Traction Loss: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXgJe9WshX8

    Geko GS 105 Seat and D-Box: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UScHUSvnMJU
     
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  6. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    A real second hand race car that you can can take to track days
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
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  7. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    That traction loss component looks kind of close to what I was thinking, but I think moving the whole thing across like that (and pivoting from near the pedals) is too large scale (I know, I know, I've given this too much thought...). I'm pretty confident rotating the seat itself only a small amount would take less power and be closer to reality as far as feeling goes. But that sideways shifting would be better than the forward and back tilt.

    No need to be a physicist, or I'm stuffed too lol

    When you brake hard in real life, you experience acceleration rearwards (axis direction is arbitrary; I'm choosing one and sticking with it). You feel that in your head because of your ears. You can experience that acceleration by moving along and slowing, or by starting at a standstill and accelerating backwards (so if you were seated backwards in a drag car, for example, you'd experience forces a lot like heavy braking).

    With these seats that mimic the movement of a real seat (pitching forward under braking, backward under acceleration, tilting sideways) there's something of an assumption that making the seat do what the car itself would be doing will be somewhat lifelike. But when you stomp on that brake pedal with the seat in a fairly neutral position, it suddenly accelerates forward so that it can get you to the "I'm braking hard, lean forward" position. That forward acceleration is the same as you'd get in a real car by accelerating, not braking. Then once the seat reaches its intended position, it slows (it's also reaching the limits of it movement), so you get a switch to rear acceleration (for your head), then as it stabilises with your constant braking you end up with a fairly light acceleration - that of gravity - acting slightly rearwards for your head as you're leaning forward at that point.

    So in trying to mimic one acceleration (braking) you've encountered 3 different phases of acceleration, and the first one's in the wrong direction. As someone prone to motion sickness I'm pretty confident it would be a recipe disaster for me.

    But, taking nothing away from what I imagine would be an engrossing experience, and I can fully understand that then going to a static seat wouldn't be much fun anymore.
     
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  8. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    I do not believe in these motion simulators. I don't need fake forces which have no correlation with real accelerations
     
  9. JimmyT

    JimmyT Registered

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    I got a next level v3 for Christmas (thanks Santa) and have to say that the trick it plays on your brain is really good in the braking and accelerating axis. If you have your back pushed to the seat, the turning sensation is OK but not as effective as brake / accel sensation.
    Having said that, I also have to add that loss of traction in a slide / drift is transmitted to the senses more effectively than normal turning.
    I have found that the stationary steering and pedal sends motion input through your arms which trick the brain more than you think. When you drive a real car and accelerate, the vehicle moves forward and tries to leave your body behind so your arms "feel" longer conversely when you brake the car slows but through inertia your body tries to continue and you move closer to the wheel. This is the feeling you get in the simulator and your brain is quite convincingly tricked. (well mine is) I add here that my braking has become much more consistent because I can feel how the car is pulling up. :)
    The same principle applies to the roll / sway when cornering in a real car, the car turns but due to inertia your body wants to continue in a straight line but your hands are attached to the wheel so they move with the car. The same sensation is transmitted through the simulator but you have to be firmly connected to the seat (if you lean forward slightly the sensation is diminished). I have found that with loss of traction in the rear end, the combination of sway and feedback from the steering wheel ffb is quite convincing and I have become much more successful in catching the slide (through the sensation) and regaining control before the car spins. I can't explain why this is but it really feels like the back is stepping out.
    The unit is compact and takes up no more room than my previous seat. It is quiet and I have had no complaints about noise from my family who may be watching television in the next room. I can race with the speakers turned down low and the unit doesn't drown it out. It only consumes 240 watts of power.

    I have not tested a 3 dof (or more) unit to compare but can highly recommend the next level motion platform v3. (best toy ever :D)

    As a foot note, I wonder how a unit where the wheel and pedals move with the seat would give you the sensation of acceleration and braking without this fake inertia trick, all you would get would be a tilting of the unit with a very short period of g force. A real car under brake or acceleration gives sustained g force (same in cornering). I'm not saying that it can't fool your brain, I just wonder how it does. I would be curious to find out.
     
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  10. ECAR_Tracks

    ECAR_Tracks Registered

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    Or a first hand professional rotax kart which will provide real 2G or more acceleration. Not intending to pollute the thread but 5000 Euros sounds expensively out of the reality.
     
  11. momoracer

    momoracer Registered

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    I still don't really understand how a dof2 unit can simulate tranction loss convincingly, I guess I would need to try it out.
    What you say is what I was thinking... if only the seat moves, then the body feels like it's being detached from the central position and you want to hold to the wheel to not fall to the sides, the wheel also becomes closer when you brake and becomes further when you accelerate as it should IRL. I guess there is only one way to find out, and that is to try for your self a full mover dof3 vs the v3... the question is how.

    Has anyone tried a seat mover vs a full mover dof3 here and can comment in detail what tricks ur brain better in VR?


    A kart would be too expensive to mantain in the long term. Tires, fuel, any repairments, gas to drive to the racetrack (and i dont even have a real car) so I would need to get one, racetrack ticket for a couple of hours... vs being able to simulate any car in the world.

    I wish my parents put me into a kart since I was 3 years old to compete but im too old now on my late 20's to ever win anything so it's not worth it for me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  12. vegaguy5555

    vegaguy5555 Registered

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    I'm just buying a house. As soon as we're moved I'm starting a new full motion rig I've been designing for the past few years.
    I think I found the actuator manufacturer I'm going to deal with. We were just discussing and pricing material yesterday. Steel or aluminum?
    Nice to see momoracer's size and budget is in line with my goal. My design has a lot more dynamic range from anything I've seen on YouTube.
    A five point harness and neck support will be necessary. Possibility graduated licensing?
    The real trick is keeping it small and reasonably priced.
     
  13. Beef36

    Beef36 Registered

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    I've tried both SimXperience (seat mover with traction loss) and D-Box (chassis mover without traction loss) with a VR headset on and for me they are both really good in VR. In both instances they reduced motion sickness. Traction loss is okay but I'd prefer to wait for the next iteration of development that will have a much wider range of sideways movement.

    Of all the motion platforms I tried the D-Box was my favourite. The motion felt less like an arcade game. It was also really quiet and easy to fit to the chassis. The D-Box motion platform moves the entire chassis and is commercial grade. D-Box uses their "i" series actuators in movie cinemas. It's durable, priced accordingly and unfortunately puts this outside your Euro 4000 budget. Notwithstanding this I did a D-Box (4 actuators) off-the-shelf cost comparison between a high-end chassis (rSeat N1) and an over-the-top branded high-end chassis (Vesaro McLaren) in case you can increase your budget.

    SPECS
    rSeat N1 Racing Cockpit (https://www.rseataustralia.com/)
    - Fully optioned Chassis only (no PC, screens, pedals, force feedback systems, wheels, sound etc.)

    Vesaro McLaren Driving Simulator (https://www.vesaro.com/)
    - Fully kitted out, McLaren branded Turn Key Solution (incl. PC, screens, pedals, force feedback systems, wheels, sound etc.).

    D-Box 4250i (http://www.d-box.com/)
    - Commercial grade hardware with 114kg max lifting capacity per actuator (or 456kg for 4 actuators). Provides Pitch, Roll, Heave and tactile vibrations. Supports single and double seats.
    - D-Box supports 2, 3, 4 (and soon more) actuators, with the choice of 3 levels of actuator travel; 1.5", 3" and 6";
    - D-Box 4250i (4 actuators each with 1.5” of travel) on its own retails for around AUD 17,000.

    PRICING (excluding shipping)
    Chassis Only
    rSeat N1 (No Motion): AUD 2,140
    rSeat N1 (D-Box 4250i with 1.5" of Actuator Travel): AUD 21,477 (+ AUD 19,337)
    rSeat N1 (D-Box 4250i with 3.0" of Actuator Travel): AUD 32,847 (+ AUD 30,707)
    rSeat N1 (D-Box 4250i with 6.0" of Actuator Travel): AUD 45,481 (+ AUD 43,341)

    Turn Key Solution
    Vesaro McLaren Sports Series – Tier 2 (Upgraded to match below units) – No Motion: AUD 55,341
    Vesaro McLaren Sports Series – Tier 5 (D-Box 4250i with 1.5" of Actuator Travel): AUD 77,476 (+ AUD 22,135)
    Vesaro McLaren Super Series – Tier 1 (D-Box 4250i with 3.0" of Actuator Travel): AUD 100,288 (+ AUD 44,947)
    Vesaro McLaren Ultimate Series – Tier 1 (D-Box 4250i with 6.0" of Actuator Travel): AUD 116,582 (+ AUD 61,241)

    * Based on AUD/USD 0.797 and AUD/GBP 0.615.
     
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  14. JimmyT

    JimmyT Registered

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    Wow, makes me feel pretty good having my 2dof for AUD 4,000 (I already had the wheel and pedals) considering the nearest priced unit you've mentioned is 13k more. :D
     
  15. woochoo

    woochoo Registered

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    This is the thinking I've been having whenever i wonder if i could or should buy a motion setup.
    Doesn't hurt that it's probably a cheaper system too :D

    Proprioception is probably what it's about

    (/ˌproʊprioʊˈsɛpʃən, -priə-/[1][2] PRO-pree-o-SEP-shən), from Latin proprius, meaning "one's own", "individual", and capio, capere, to take or grasp, is the sense of the relative position of one's own parts of the body and strength of effort being employed in movement.[3]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception
     
  16. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    This is really interesting. The really fun part here is you could replicate this by moving the steering wheel (and pedals) instead of the seat to get the same feeling, which might even work better for cornering (you don't need to be rigidly strapped to the seat so that you can feel all its movements - just sitting still will allow you to feel the tiniest movement of the wheel). And since the wheel and pedals will likely weigh a lot less than the player (and seat), you could get away with smaller quieter motors.

    I would love to have the money and the time to try these things out and work out a best combination. I'd be interested to see how a mix of this wheel/pedal movement, buttkickers or similar for jolts and bumps, and some minor seat rotation (swivelling left and right like an office chair) for traction loss would feel. The concave/convex seating I mentioned earlier would probably be a waste for a driving sim because the vertical G isn't big enough (but for the occasional corner/complex like Eau Rouge it would possibly be fantastic) but if you were really throwing the money around you could try the backrest at least. And I were able to try all that I reckon I'd have a go at tilting the seat itself a little (the part you're sitting on) and seeing if the sensation of starting to fall to one side would help mimic cornering forces. All of this with your head basically staying completely still.
     
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  17. momoracer

    momoracer Registered

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    This is why I made the distinction between full movers and seat only movers and as he explained, I was not sure what would be more realistic in practice specially under the mindfvck that is VR. And about your quoted sentence here, I think the idea is during VR at least, your brain would automatically compensante your head movement when you start leaning left and right, think the static head on a chicken when you move it's body around. I think seat mover could help you react like that more naturally than the entire thing moving but im just thinking by intuition, again not having tried a single sim motion platform and im not a physcist, hell I havent even tried VR yet.
     
  18. momoracer

    momoracer Registered

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    I think im not going to spend 5 figures on a sim motion unfortunately, but what do you mean by next iterations? is there any innovations in the pipeline to be released in the next few years that could make it better?

    It would be cool if you could try the budget ready to run Next Level Racing V3 and ProSimu T1000 to compare with these and see if all that extra money is worth it or mostly marketing.
     
  19. Beef36

    Beef36 Registered

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    I've seen a lot more activitiy in the domestic motion platform industry in the last 12 months than ever before so there are lots of developments and innovations.

    I'm seeking g-force simulation, whether that is the upcoming SimXperience GS5 seat, Frex's products, SimCraft, the new D-Box Gen 2 or Force Dynamics continuous yaw amongst others.

    All this innovation will hopefully also drive down costs.
     
  20. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Indeed, VR and interaction with seat movements is another kettle of fish entirely. Beef36's observation that the movement reduced the amount of motion sickness is promising.
     

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