What motion sim should I buy? (budget 4000€)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by momoracer, Jan 12, 2018.

Tags:
  1. JimmyT

    JimmyT Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    565
    Likes Received:
    312
    I may not have explained myself clearly on this point, I think you still need to move your body because this moves the fluid in your ears and gives your brain the sensations it associates with the movement you get in a real vehicle (it's a balance thing). I have read articles on the theory of motion simulation by ONLY moving your head (better in a VR environment where you can't see the stationary surroundings) and there have been some early prototypes of this technology. (this may have progressed since I read the articles or possibly fallen by the wayside)
     
  2. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,415
    In order to reduce motion sickness you have to suffer from it. I am quite esceptic regarding this affirmation. It would be interesting to know how bad he suffers from motion sickness without motion platform. When I read 5 or more people reporting the same I will start to believe it.
    Placebo effect is a very well known thing.

    I don't suffer any motion sickness with DK2 in rF2. I don't need to close my eyes when spinning or crashing, it just feels natural. I don't get sick in planes, boats, rollercoasters and I can normally read when travelling as a passenger. Only, the first minute feels a bit strange until my brain gets used to it.

    I remember when I first tried a rollercoaster demo when I bought the DK2 over ayear ago. My old laptop was unable to provide 75fps. In quick rotations it was terrible. I had to rest for one hour after removing the rift before the dizziness disappeared. So, in my case motion sickness appeared when the image was not fluent. I strongly doubt that a motion platform would have been able to solve the issue.
     
    Marc Coyles likes this.
  3. JimmyT

    JimmyT Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    565
    Likes Received:
    312
    I read a paper on this subject also, and they were saying that the driver of a vehicle is less likely to experience motion sickness because of the head movements, leaning into corners, whereas the passenger will usually not lean into the corner and is more prone to sickness. There was a lot more theory and medical info behind it but it was interesting and may explain why, if you have motion simulation, you are (reportedly) less likely to experience motion sickness in simulated driving programs.
     
    SPASKIS likes this.
  4. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,415
    As you explain it it makes no sense. It is precisely saying that correct visuals avoid the sickness and motion alone provokes it.
    The passenger in a car has motion and gets sickness. You are affirming that is the fact that he tilts his head in the turns what avoids driver sickness. You do precisely get this with the rift and still some get sick.

    So this would never prove that a motion simulator reduces sickness in VR.
     
  5. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    6,673
    Likes Received:
    2,540
    If I can continue on this largely off-topic subject, I can drive myself for hours upon hours with no hint of motion sickness, but 2 mins passenger with a rough driver (especially braking) and I can be ready to need a bag. Nothing to do with leaning into corners etc, just that when I'm driving I'm controlling what I'm feeling - when I undergo accelerations it's because of my movements (wheel, pedals) and my brain can put them all together and make sense of it. Someone else's controls give me no warning and those accelerations are nauseating.

    On the other hand, I've never ever ever once in my life felt any nausea from watching/playing any computer game (on a screen), but have known 2 people who couldn't last more than about 10 mins without feeling unwell (first one back in the Doom days).

    So I would say when it comes to nausea and what does and doesn't help, you'd need to try it yourself. And if it's not an issue, fantastic.

    *Meanwhile, on a recent karting outing I was all fine until I spun twice under braking (no other way in rental karts, really) and despite the short sessions and regular gaps I had to pull the pin after another 20 mins driving (and checking that a particular set of corners really could be taken flat, if I didn't miss the apex) to avoid throwing up in my rental helmet.
     
    momoracer likes this.
  6. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,415
    I cannot agree more on this. :)
     
  7. vittorio

    vittorio Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2012
    Messages:
    838
    Likes Received:
    292
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  8. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,415
    For what I have seen in the Spa video I really doubt that the g forces you get have any correlation with real ones. That motion platform barely leans taking advantage of gravity in order to provide the fake g forces. Everything seems to be based on dynamic accelerations which are very limited and will only act in the initial part of the movement of each axis.

    Systems like this where gravity can be used to apply and very sophisticated and ingame integrated software to drive its actuators would be required.

    https://futurism.com/videos/a-motion-simulator-is-making-vr-feel-real/
     
  9. vittorio

    vittorio Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2012
    Messages:
    838
    Likes Received:
    292
    I think it's impossible anyway to simulate g-forces which correlate well with real g-forces (as long as you don't have a big hall). Of course you could rotate this 6DOF some degrees so you get some constant g-forces but i doubt this works well.

    What I think a motion sim can and should do well is to give precise clues what the car is doing: losing grip in corners, getting grip again, the back is getting lose, back recovered, slight jump and losing contact, get contact again, tires lock on breaking ...

    The only drawback with this construction I can see is that it have to lift the drivers weight all the time, and loses some actuator precision. But I think/hope this has minimal effect because the actuators have spindles which carry most of the weight due to friction.

    What I think is most important is to get high quality actuators which are fast, strong and precise. Most 6DOF you sometimes see in videos are IMHO useless because of cheap actuators and missing precision and details.

    EDIT: I have the same goal as the OP. To build me a motion sim within the next ~2 years which works well in VR. VR & motion sim isn't that easy IMHO. Like where is the sensor/camera located? In this 6DOF example I think it is easy and should be located on the moving platform. But what about those new inside-out tracking solutions used by Windows Mixed Reality headsets? I think they won't work because of missing sensor/camera ...
    On the other side HMDs with camera/sensor (Oculus,Vive) use accelerometers in the headsets too. Do they get confused by the moving platform? ... VR & motion sim is not so easy IMHO!
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  10. Joe

    Joe Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    21
    I think for your budget, the The ProSimu T1000 3 plus Simxperience GS5 seat = best solution!
    I just cannot think any better way under this budget. I own 3DoF Simxperience motion rig for over 5 years now, and tried Ford factory 6DoF and 4DoF full motion simulators and Dodge factory 3DoF motion simulator (D-box). I like the D-Box solution better. If I were starting all over again, I would go with D-box + real traction loss + GS5 seat. Only short come this solution (ProSimu T1000 3 plus Simxperience GS5 seat ) is that you dont have braking G-force effect since you don't have tension force on seat belt.
    If you do want to preserve the braking g-force effect, then I suggest the SimXperince stage 3 or 4 plus GS5 seat, but it maybe over your budge by $1000 I will think.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  11. Supa

    Supa Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    118
    Likes Received:
    55
    If even the million dollar race team motion rigs suffer from lag then that should tell you what you need to know Just spend the money on decent wheels and pedals and dont get sucked into wasting money on things that wont improve your driving!
     
    SPASKIS likes this.
  12. momoracer

    momoracer Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2017
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    23
    What do you think of the racingcube?

     
  13. momoracer

    momoracer Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2017
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    23
    I wonder what f1 pros are using to simulate nowadays? This looks like the most recent footage I could find:

     
  14. Joe

    Joe Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    21
    It seems this system is pretty "fragile", I am afraid that you would not be able to mount high-end padeals and a DD steering system. If do, probably very flex...
    The HPP or HE pedals has max foot padel force > 80 lb. A DD wheel could come up max 20 Nm.

    BTW, I tried a 6DoF System, I dont like it. To me, 6dof motion would be perfect for fight sim, naturally. For racing car, I doubt. Large movment in 6dof supposed to simulate g effect but does not work on me. In fact mess up my inner ear balance sensory....

    To me, for sim g effect, seat mover + g-seat works best.

    Hope this is helpful, best luck.
     
    momoracer likes this.
  15. momoracer

    momoracer Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2017
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    23
    Thanks, yeah for me, at least in my head and how I imagine it.. I think the seat mover to achieve the "im moving and I want to hold on to the wheel" effect specially useful to trick you in VR, and combined with the "being sucked inwards of the seat in a the corners" kind of effect, the combination can be powerful in VR, but again I haven't even tried VR yet im just imagining by intuition.

    Is there any footage of the GS-5? its been years in development I think and still nothing, at this point feels like an area51 secret project, not a single pic??
     
  16. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

    Joined:
    May 28, 2012
    Messages:
    4,431
    Likes Received:
    959
    Lag is the biggest problem here due to actuator speed

    Go with SCN6 actuators & you’ll not go wrong
     
    vittorio likes this.
  17. Joe

    Joe Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    21
    Well, recently PT-actuator manufacture started to offer pretty affordable D-box style solutions. The 3x setup costs you about $3k:


    Then add a seat mover on the top (SimXperience 2 SCN5 actuators kit) that would be really good rig, probably best for that budget.

    For similar budget, other option would be Prosimu t1000 3dof:

    Adding a Simxperience GS-5 g-seat on the top. This combo would be a killer too.
    I wrote long post on in the end of thread below in this regard (long though):
    https://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/27998-seat-mover-vs-dbox-noseat-mover-dbox/
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019

Share This Page