Now I see that I can extract some results, like lateral loads at certain slip angles, etc.... my question is, how can you change now those results? In rF1 for example you could change the slip curves in the .tbc file easily... now I am a bit lost. Same with heating, optimal temperatures, etc...
My understanding at the moment about those are that such are now result of how you set up nodes and their parameters, maybe relation of stating and sliding grip coeff has effect in that, but I don't have much of real info, only my hunch or what would you call it. I believe that slip angles themselves can't be set, but are result of how you build structure of tire, but that is pretty much of guessing, anyone who knows can offer something more concrete to this, please?
It depends on tire geometry, his weight, thikness, used materials, materials characteristics, number of plys, plys location on tire etc I hope Terence will forgive me if I paste his answer for my question from pm.
I see. So now it's really hard to make accurate tires.... almost impossible with real understanding about tires physics. And 98% of rFactor modders don't have real understand about this. It can be a better tire model in terms of feeling if you nail it, but it's going to be a nightmare for modders.
I don't know if it is worse still, we can make now tires that are more like real tires, I think it should be possible to make tire that has realistic handling and when put to other cars that same tire would work without adjustments. So when we learn how to make them, it is only needed to make different sizes of tires and share them, it would not be needed to make wheel all over again anymore, I think at least. Instead of making tire for car, we would make a tire, of certain size, type, speed rating and load index, then all could get that tire to work in their car, which was not possible in rF1. But question then is, will egos come in play and will some thing that as they figure things out, others should do the same and not get easier way or something stupid as not wanting other mods to have as good tires as mod of own. When trying to do it right before it was not much easier, we just had bit more figured out and shared, with time, I at least hope same to happen here and even more I hope that community can work together to get few tens of sizes that work in realistic manner. Well, I hope many things, some happen, some don't, we wait, we see, until then we can poke ttool with stick and see what comes out.
@ Domi: Well, as easy as you claim rF1 to be to adjust tyres, i recall some very bad mods all because of tyres. And i spent a lot of time working on them ( too long ). A little focus and perseverance and youll soon be making very good tyres in rF2, even if not perfect, they still work very good based on existing beta data and a custom geometry and QSA. The part i havent worked out yet is if the realtime section alters ingame permanatley post lookup, or its just a feature of the dev mode and used for generating lookups, as some tutorial info led me to think this.
I agree. But I still think the same, in the rFactor community there aren't many guys with real tire understanding. You only have to open some .tbc files from rFactor mods to know that. Who can guarantee you what tires are realistic?
Well with "easy" I don't mean that it's easy to make good tires in rF1, obviously if you have no clue about tires and you don't have any kind of data, most probably the tires won't be accurate. What I mean is that it was easier to work on them.
I think that it is community that decides what is realistic and what is not, we could even form a panel from those that know tires whom could then evaluate tires, there are lot of options, but is there will, that is which I suspect mostly. Sometimes I get impression that modders prefer to tinker in their own corners and then point out how others make bad this and that, but never get up and help, but maybe that is just my impression? There is lot of know how, great abilities, but often I find quite little sharing. It is true that there are not many that know it all, but there may be 10 that know 10 different parts but remain silent and parts are not put together.
jtbo : there are many issues - when you can have realdatas about anythings, 99% of times you can't share it, even if you want - even the real data sheets are wrong on many parts - i think, i'm not sure, but i think no one will have the datas asked by rf2. why ? because even a real racing team doesn't care about this datas. the ones who will work on this model will make it for them, for their own simulator. so they won't need modders, and they will never share something who cost many hours of work. and hope to have something directly from tires manufacturers is just a dream ^^ as said earlier in this topic. the pacejka model is a "semi empirical" system. this give you only a "semi theorical" idea of the result. this is really hard to find, and as about everything, you can't share it. so who can imagine find the "industrial secrets" of the manufacturers about competition stuff ?
Those are of course very true and valid points, but when you make tire with such data and release a mod, data is shared, well usage of data at least, if that is possible, making few tires and sharing them tires should be possible? I happen to have at least two tires that I can 'destroy' in name of science, but I would need bit of pointers how I should examine and write up my findings. Might find even more of them for this purpose and I'm lucky (or rather unlucky) to have time for this at the moment. What I understand is that I need to cut tire and check those metal wires and what ever material is used in them that is inside of tire, then I would need to try and estimate some layers(?) and such, but what would be methods in practice that would give me some data to put into ttool? I can build some rough things from wood and even from sheetmetal too if that is any help. Measurement of thickness, diameters, widths etc of course would be needed as well as calculating volumes of rim and tire itself. Good measurements of cross section and to place nodes to those locations, that should be easy part, I guess. I would like to create also some sort of tutorial how to get some of data from such process to ttool, but I would need tutoring trough that process. After that we could then point out to my writeup when new one asks questions about how to make a tires, there would be also some reference values too from my work. So any clever guy up to a challenge?
Is ISI going to give proper tire data to the community? Because if we have to be guessing so many values we are pretty lost here.
I can't remember or find where they give link to this, but I'm pretty sure they gave it somewhere: http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/safercar/pdf/PneumaticTire_HS-810-561.pdf That monster has over 680 pages without many pretty pictures, it might be helpful, but I read two pages, fall asleep, wake up and have forgotten one page, then repeat, by time I have read 10 pages I have forgotten what was in first four, so progress is bit slow Anyway, mostly 90% of that is something not needed, you can have few variations in certain ranges and what those are in reality are then where from one should choose his values, but to know what those few are need to read document, play with values, write down what works and what does not. I try to take some pics from cut real tires soon if those are going to help anything.
To anyone who want to make own STREET tire. If you are looking for what material tires are build, and how many plies it has look in sidewall for something like this: It tells you how many plies are in tread section, from what materials are this plies. Young modulus, Poisson number, destiny you can find in internet or engineering books about materials. This parameters are needed to generate lockup data for tire. PlyMaterial=(temperature for the rest of the parameters are valid, destiny, yound modulus, poisson ratio, damping factor, specific heat, chermal conductivity ) Specific Heat, Thermal Conductivity < "The final 2 values can be altered without regenerating the lookup data and tested instantly in-game, as these are part of the thermodynamics model." If you want build tire you need basic knowledge about tire structure, how the tire are build. This is basics to start model own tire. Bulk material - "Fills out the tyre" - this is this is the rubber on tire you see on side wall etc. But this material isnt the same like TREAD material. Yes it is rubber too, but its slightly different rubber from what you have on tread. Remember about that.
Question: for CarStat someone pointed out to me that the .tbc-files are no longer being used - except for the AI. That's rather annoying since I read those TBC files, but hey, that's my own fault for not paying enough attention . Now I'd like to rewrite it to read the stats from the tgm-files, but I'll need some more information for displaying these stats: - Wearrate (how fast the tire wears): I'd use the TemporaryAbrasion-value for these. Mind you: the purpose of these stats is to show the difference between different compounds, not giving the absolute values. - Dry grip (the max amount of grip): I'd use the StaticBaseCoefficient - Wet grip (the max amount of grip on wet track): I'd use the StaticBaseCoefficient * DampnessEffects - Heating (how fast a tire heats): don't know what parameter could tell you this. - With the old TBC-files you could easily create this graph for the relation between wear and grip. I fear that's no longer possible? Could someone help me out with these? Thanks!
SlidingBaseCoefficient is more important in order to find the grip in my opinon, more than the Static value.
