G
Guimengo
Guest
I think the Skippies were the last cars, with the BT20, to get an update before newer tech became the standard. An overhauled (visuals and driving) Skip Barber pack would be extremely welcome.
Skip Barber Formula 2000 v1.54 Now Available!
- Thread starter 88mphTim
- Start date
Almost one year later and after trying the recently updated Skippy in iRacing (after a long hiatus), I can only say that I am drooling at the prospect of the Skippy with the latest steering/FFB system from the most recent car releases and the latest tire grip formulas. The two should combine to make the Skippy feel much more planted (like a real one) and deal with the too little grip from the rear tires. For the first time for me, the iRacing version feels and acts better than the rF2 version. But I am confident the updated ISI Skippy will take the crown back
I hope you won't mind if I disagree with you.
Just drove again Skippy at Sao Paolo (you can drive them on big fast tracks, they don't catch cold outside), and for me, it is in it's actual state, the better car in the ISI stable to highlight the advanced physics of RF2 (may be not a very sexy car, but who cares).
The car is a pure delight to drive (manual gears, double clutch, toe and heel), and a perfect learning tool, highly recommended before driving more powerful classics. The car is easy to control and the drive is relaxed if you drive it smoothly and within you capabilities.
I just lapped at Sao Paolo (20 laps), and no unwanted spins, but beautiful four wheel slides in fast curves, provoqued oversteer in slow corner entry, pure driving bliss, you know at each moment what the car is doing and will do next.
So in my point of view, no need for a "Sticky Barber", we have boatloads of "easy" to drive cars in RF2 (because you know, realistic doesn't mean difficult to drive)...
Cheers.
MaD_King
Registered
+1
WhiteShadow
Registered
-1
Lack of realistic clutch makes your claim false.
http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.p...-a-realistic-clutch-option-in-rFactor-2/page8
Is the Skippy clutch worse than those of other RF2 cars?-1
Lack of realistic clutch makes your claim false.
http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.p...-a-realistic-clutch-option-in-rFactor-2/page8
My post is what I think, not any absolute truth, I make no claim of realism anywhere in my post, you are welcome to think otherwise, let me be delighted with the skippy please.
Cheers.
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WhiteShadow
Registered
Sorry I thought you was simulating skippy and not playing simcade. My mistake sorry, you are welcome to be delighted with it.
I never loose sight of the fact that I only paid 45 dollars for RF2, I feel that I have already received an outstanding value in exchange from ISI, and every new update brings an improvement to my experience.
I drive with what many describe as a toy wheel, a G27, and I am now affraid to confess, I enjoy every minute of it.
I also drive real cars, and even with this reference, I still enjoy playing with RF2, as I don't expect RF2 to be the equivalent of several thousands dollars professional simulators rigs.
Should I refrain from enjoying driving RF2 cars (playing simcade), and exasperate my frustration by thinking of the missing features of RF2?
Cheers.
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WhiteShadow
Registered
Nobody is frustrated just remember that Marc`s and my opinion is as valid as yours.
Marc Collins
Registered
I like the Skippy now. I just think the update will be even better.
Driving the latest iRacing Skippy reminded me (having driven real Skippies) that, like almost all ISI cars, there is too little grip at the rear of the car. The old iRacing Skippy also had this exact problem, but they have now resolved it quite impressively. Their Skippy feels soild and planted, just like the real one. You can still get into trouble very easily if you forget it's a rear-engined car and don't deal with your braking and steering a properly co-ordinated manner, but otherwise, the car impresses as very authentic.
When you drive a real Skippy (all sequential transmissions now, Lgel, sorry) the first thing that hits your brain if you are coming from a street car is "how can this car not be sliding off the track in that corner???" The grip is incredible (as a sensation...of course it's not as much grip as even more expensive, sophisticated race cars). The braking, once the brakes finally warm up, is also out of this world compared to any street car.
When I drive the iRacing Skippy, that's the feeling I get through the wheel and the sensation the overall package gives me. You can't four-wheel drift at will through corners, because you can't do that in the real one. You can't lose the back end from the slightest throttle misstep, because that's not what happens in the real one. It's not that powerful and the one unimpressive part of racing a Skippy is the acceleration and throttle response. That's the one area where a high-end street car does blow it away. If I drive a street car in rF2, like the NSX, and then get in the Skippy, there is something quite out of whack. And it's the Skippy that feels farther from the truth than the NSX to me.
It's only my opinion based on my experiences, but the latest iRacing Skippy is more authentic handling and other characteristics. The old one was worse than the ISI one. It took them how many years to get to this latest, "good" in my view, version? More than it will take ISI.
But please be aware that even though the Skippy is a training car, the schools have them set-up in a very neutral manner and they are as easy as pie to drive at anything below 9/10ths. It is only above 9/10ths that some people unfamiliar with rear-engined weight bias can forget what they need to do and get into some trouble that will cause that sphincter-clenching wobbling and tippy feeling and probably end with the car facing backwards. Unfortunately, I experience that sensation with the ISI Skippy at about 5/10ths. If the cars were that skittish, believe me, no racing school that pays insurance would be using them for training or corporate events, etc., with a bunch of people who generally don't know how to drive street cars let alone race cars.
...And all of this is related to the Regional car, since that's what's in iRacing and that's the one I have driven.
Driving the latest iRacing Skippy reminded me (having driven real Skippies) that, like almost all ISI cars, there is too little grip at the rear of the car. The old iRacing Skippy also had this exact problem, but they have now resolved it quite impressively. Their Skippy feels soild and planted, just like the real one. You can still get into trouble very easily if you forget it's a rear-engined car and don't deal with your braking and steering a properly co-ordinated manner, but otherwise, the car impresses as very authentic.
When you drive a real Skippy (all sequential transmissions now, Lgel, sorry) the first thing that hits your brain if you are coming from a street car is "how can this car not be sliding off the track in that corner???" The grip is incredible (as a sensation...of course it's not as much grip as even more expensive, sophisticated race cars). The braking, once the brakes finally warm up, is also out of this world compared to any street car.
When I drive the iRacing Skippy, that's the feeling I get through the wheel and the sensation the overall package gives me. You can't four-wheel drift at will through corners, because you can't do that in the real one. You can't lose the back end from the slightest throttle misstep, because that's not what happens in the real one. It's not that powerful and the one unimpressive part of racing a Skippy is the acceleration and throttle response. That's the one area where a high-end street car does blow it away. If I drive a street car in rF2, like the NSX, and then get in the Skippy, there is something quite out of whack. And it's the Skippy that feels farther from the truth than the NSX to me.
It's only my opinion based on my experiences, but the latest iRacing Skippy is more authentic handling and other characteristics. The old one was worse than the ISI one. It took them how many years to get to this latest, "good" in my view, version? More than it will take ISI.
But please be aware that even though the Skippy is a training car, the schools have them set-up in a very neutral manner and they are as easy as pie to drive at anything below 9/10ths. It is only above 9/10ths that some people unfamiliar with rear-engined weight bias can forget what they need to do and get into some trouble that will cause that sphincter-clenching wobbling and tippy feeling and probably end with the car facing backwards. Unfortunately, I experience that sensation with the ISI Skippy at about 5/10ths. If the cars were that skittish, believe me, no racing school that pays insurance would be using them for training or corporate events, etc., with a bunch of people who generally don't know how to drive street cars let alone race cars.
...And all of this is related to the Regional car, since that's what's in iRacing and that's the one I have driven.
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Hello Marc,
As I haven't driven the IRacing version, I wont argue with you which is better.
I drive the Skippy with manual gears because I have seen a gear level on my right in the cockpit (may be I am totally wrong) , and as a training for classics that have.
But give the same real car to 10 testers, and many will differ on what they think about this real car.
10 people read a novel, and will give a different description of a character. If they are presented with a choice of pictures to choose from, they will choose different impersonations for the fictionnal one.
In simracing, more then half of what you experiment is what you imagine the car to be, it depends of your driving experience, your imagination, many things.
I still have in mind the feedback of the beta testers for Apex GT3 cars, they weren't driving the same car, nor driving the same sim, even the laws of physics seemed different, and all of them were hand picked proven sim drivers.
That is why I understand and fully accept that opinions on a car or a given setup can vary so wildly, and my opinion is not better that anyone's else.
When I drive a Skippy, I don't feel "You can't lose the back end from the slightest throttle misstep", I feel this rightly with more powerful cars like the Howston G6 for instance, the AC Cobra, or to stay with OW the BT20 or the Spark F1, not the least with the Skippy. I only have propblems with a Skippy if a miss a braking point, or under evaluate my entry speed in a curve.
But I know I have a different wheel than you, different pedals, and I drive with 50 % sensitivity for throttle and brake.
I believe that in a sim you are much braver than in real life, you have less speed feedback and that you overdrive much easily a car (I was surprised when I saw an inboard footage of a Lola T70 in historical Le Mans, of how careful they were with throttle through curves, and still from outside the cars were turning very fast), I have never outbraked seriously a car in real life (on a track, I mean completly missing braking point and going widly off track, not simply missing apex), I do it very frequently when jumping in a new car or track in a RF2.
Cheers Marc.
As I haven't driven the IRacing version, I wont argue with you which is better.
I drive the Skippy with manual gears because I have seen a gear level on my right in the cockpit (may be I am totally wrong) , and as a training for classics that have.
But give the same real car to 10 testers, and many will differ on what they think about this real car.
10 people read a novel, and will give a different description of a character. If they are presented with a choice of pictures to choose from, they will choose different impersonations for the fictionnal one.
In simracing, more then half of what you experiment is what you imagine the car to be, it depends of your driving experience, your imagination, many things.
I still have in mind the feedback of the beta testers for Apex GT3 cars, they weren't driving the same car, nor driving the same sim, even the laws of physics seemed different, and all of them were hand picked proven sim drivers.
That is why I understand and fully accept that opinions on a car or a given setup can vary so wildly, and my opinion is not better that anyone's else.
When I drive a Skippy, I don't feel "You can't lose the back end from the slightest throttle misstep", I feel this rightly with more powerful cars like the Howston G6 for instance, the AC Cobra, or to stay with OW the BT20 or the Spark F1, not the least with the Skippy. I only have propblems with a Skippy if a miss a braking point, or under evaluate my entry speed in a curve.
But I know I have a different wheel than you, different pedals, and I drive with 50 % sensitivity for throttle and brake.
I believe that in a sim you are much braver than in real life, you have less speed feedback and that you overdrive much easily a car (I was surprised when I saw an inboard footage of a Lola T70 in historical Le Mans, of how careful they were with throttle through curves, and still from outside the cars were turning very fast), I have never outbraked seriously a car in real life (on a track, I mean completly missing braking point and going widly off track, not simply missing apex), I do it very frequently when jumping in a new car or track in a RF2.
Cheers Marc.
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G
Guimengo
Guest
Marc Collins
Registered
The older Skippy's were standard manual transmissions. That's mostly what I have driven. The new ones use lift-to-shift sequentials. Doesn't really matter other than ISI and iRacing have correctly configured the transmission modelling to use that sequential approach. The only issue may be in the future if ISI properly models the clutch, we might not have the option that Lgel prefers for practising clutch. And the Skippy is the perfect car to practise heel and toe technique in terms of it's dynamics.
Yes, I agree, we all perceive differently and the equipment we use has some significant role in that.
But Paul's description about the sliding around a lot rings true to me. That's what I perceive and experience when I use the ISI Skippy. That's not what I perceive or feel or experience in the real car or in the iRacing version. All other aspects of the ISI car are spot-on from my limited capability to judge as a mere user.
To me, it all comes down to the lateral grip of the tires. In the olden days of just a few years ago, the simulated cars more often than not felt and behaved like they were riding on solid rubber tires instead of tires filled with air. Both iRacing and ISI have their respective new tire models that have made leaps and bounds of progress towards something more realistic. My impression is that the ISI Skippy tire is much improved in feel and action over the original, but lateral grip force applied to the tires do not result in the tire behaving appropriately. It's as though lateral forces are still running through the old solid rubber tires, but the other forces feel like an authentic air-filled tire. So braking feels great. Turning feels a little bit like the tires are extremely over-inflated (even if the sim says they are not), but more importantly the car is reacting as if the tires are extremely over-inflated. When hitting bumps, neither is true. Braking neither is true. Accelerating, neither is true. Only cornering.
I am not sure if it is technically feasible (in short order) to swap the new Clio tires, that do feel like air-filled rubber when turning (you can literally feel them squirm under stress through the steering wheel, just like in a real car and they feel stressed just as FWD car would stress them), onto the Skippy. I have a suspicion that with changing absolutely nothing else, just the rubber from the Clio, the whole car handling (and FFB by extension) would improve for the better, be more authentic, and that alone may put the Skippy back at the top of my list. Is this actually possible for someone with basic modding skills? It would be a fantastic experiment.
But back to Paul's comment. Yes, it is easy to control the car in a slide--it's very nicely modelled and balanced. It's just that the real car doesn't slide like that.
And lastly, Lgel--how can you possibly use 50% throttle sensitivity (why, I might ask?) and think that you are experiencing the car's responsiveness as intended by the author/creator/modder? If a car has a hair-trigger throttle or not, that has to be built-in to the sim as best as the author can. If we have to reduce throttle sensitivity to make the car behave....??? I thought you were the advocate that people learn how to drive properly, not use aids or masks or even set-up tricks? In this case, the Skippy should not have a very sensitive throttle. The cars are relatively gutless by open-wheel race car standards.
Yes, I agree, we all perceive differently and the equipment we use has some significant role in that.
But Paul's description about the sliding around a lot rings true to me. That's what I perceive and experience when I use the ISI Skippy. That's not what I perceive or feel or experience in the real car or in the iRacing version. All other aspects of the ISI car are spot-on from my limited capability to judge as a mere user.
To me, it all comes down to the lateral grip of the tires. In the olden days of just a few years ago, the simulated cars more often than not felt and behaved like they were riding on solid rubber tires instead of tires filled with air. Both iRacing and ISI have their respective new tire models that have made leaps and bounds of progress towards something more realistic. My impression is that the ISI Skippy tire is much improved in feel and action over the original, but lateral grip force applied to the tires do not result in the tire behaving appropriately. It's as though lateral forces are still running through the old solid rubber tires, but the other forces feel like an authentic air-filled tire. So braking feels great. Turning feels a little bit like the tires are extremely over-inflated (even if the sim says they are not), but more importantly the car is reacting as if the tires are extremely over-inflated. When hitting bumps, neither is true. Braking neither is true. Accelerating, neither is true. Only cornering.
I am not sure if it is technically feasible (in short order) to swap the new Clio tires, that do feel like air-filled rubber when turning (you can literally feel them squirm under stress through the steering wheel, just like in a real car and they feel stressed just as FWD car would stress them), onto the Skippy. I have a suspicion that with changing absolutely nothing else, just the rubber from the Clio, the whole car handling (and FFB by extension) would improve for the better, be more authentic, and that alone may put the Skippy back at the top of my list. Is this actually possible for someone with basic modding skills? It would be a fantastic experiment.
But back to Paul's comment. Yes, it is easy to control the car in a slide--it's very nicely modelled and balanced. It's just that the real car doesn't slide like that.
And lastly, Lgel--how can you possibly use 50% throttle sensitivity (why, I might ask?) and think that you are experiencing the car's responsiveness as intended by the author/creator/modder? If a car has a hair-trigger throttle or not, that has to be built-in to the sim as best as the author can. If we have to reduce throttle sensitivity to make the car behave....??? I thought you were the advocate that people learn how to drive properly, not use aids or masks or even set-up tricks? In this case, the Skippy should not have a very sensitive throttle. The cars are relatively gutless by open-wheel race car standards.
Marc, I was given this advice by a good driver for driving F1 (original FISI 2012), as it worked for me, I didn't do as I did in RF1 where I had several controller configurations depending on the car driven, I just drive with this one, I agree with you, I don't think it is needed at all for the Skippy.
Before replying I changed those two parameters back to default, and lapped again at Sao Paolo (had to adapt to new brake feeling, not a big deal).
I still don't have any problem with throttle control, and I still believe the car is easy to drive, and is an excellent learning car.
I don't say that the Skippy is perfect or realistic and can't be improved, but as a modder (mainly for myself with the exception of APEX GT3 tuning) I have been in contact with other modders, and I know that many mods have been tuned down (made easier to drive) for commercial success.
With very few efforts I could provide you with a better planted Skippy, much more tolerant to driver errors.
RF2 cars are more difficult to drive than the cars in other sims, it seems that people prefer to buy sims which are less demanding and give drivers instant rewards (no criticism here, many persons have not a lot of free time, and hence are not able to devote great amount of time to their hobby).
ISI is a commercial venue, no doubt they will end giving customers what they want, so we must be careful when we express our desires.
Cheers Marc.
Marc Collins
Registered
I have no concerns whatsoever that ISI will dumb-down any of their cars. There has been zero evidence of that to my knowledge. But as the tire model improves, most of the cars will get more intuitive to drive, which for me makes them easier. With racing/console games that are not trying to truly simulate the physics, yes, it is easy to dumb-down handling for commercial appeal. Any video game can be mastered, no matter whether realistic or not. I think we are all here because we want a simulation, not a concocted challenge created for traditional "gaming" purposes. Those are often fun and I own a few, but different topic than what I am talking about here.
iRacing and ISI have both shown their complete stubbornness towards developing the respective sims from core principles and adherence to physics--even if that meant in the case of iRacing about 3 or 4 years where the whole suite of cars was whacked due to the new tire model (which had some interesting qualities and improvements, but overall was a mess). iRacing was derided for years--probably still is--as "iceRacing." They could have easily put in a kludge to address that, but instead spent years tinkering and developing what they set-out to do--the best tire model they can create. Only the most recent iteration of the tire model is bringing cars (one-by-one) back to reality. Why do this seemingly crazy thing? Because now they have a tire model that can be used with their new dynamic track, can better simulate wear and temps, etc., etc. They are in an advantaged position now compared to everyone out there except ISI. In my opinion, ISI's tire model was already better than iRacing's when rF2 came out. The recent improvements are massively encouraging and all positive. I'm just impatient for them to make their way onto all cars, but the much larger iRacing team has also taken literally years to roll-out theirs, too. Some cars are way ahead of others in terms of the development cycle. Unfortunately, it's too much work to apply every incremental improvement in the modelling to every car right away. We have to wait...
iRacing and ISI have both shown their complete stubbornness towards developing the respective sims from core principles and adherence to physics--even if that meant in the case of iRacing about 3 or 4 years where the whole suite of cars was whacked due to the new tire model (which had some interesting qualities and improvements, but overall was a mess). iRacing was derided for years--probably still is--as "iceRacing." They could have easily put in a kludge to address that, but instead spent years tinkering and developing what they set-out to do--the best tire model they can create. Only the most recent iteration of the tire model is bringing cars (one-by-one) back to reality. Why do this seemingly crazy thing? Because now they have a tire model that can be used with their new dynamic track, can better simulate wear and temps, etc., etc. They are in an advantaged position now compared to everyone out there except ISI. In my opinion, ISI's tire model was already better than iRacing's when rF2 came out. The recent improvements are massively encouraging and all positive. I'm just impatient for them to make their way onto all cars, but the much larger iRacing team has also taken literally years to roll-out theirs, too. Some cars are way ahead of others in terms of the development cycle. Unfortunately, it's too much work to apply every incremental improvement in the modelling to every car right away. We have to wait...