Searching Ideas for Standard of Car Simulation

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by mantasisg, Aug 21, 2019.

  1. xerofer

    xerofer Registered

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    Suggesting you a better platform is not easy, as you refused to finish the W125
    The only suggestion would be finish what you started...
     
  2. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Ok I get it now what Rui said, it is time to switch off the newbie chit chat, perhaps someone will post something good again, like Emery did.

    W125 and all other mods are all my business, will be finished in next year, in next five years or in next 50 years. Thats toatally just my business.
     
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  3. xerofer

    xerofer Registered

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    Than please stop whining here. All this: oh I got the best..., oh I must be part of, ... my model should...
    and the silver Wi..., stop it please!
    Rest yourself please!
     
  4. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    Original title was like something DrivingFast would came up with although there wasn't any word like realism/realistic in it so not quite :p
     
  5. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @xerofer Initially I welcomed you as someone who seems intelligent, now I regret responses. This is not whining in the first place, thread is about ideas what could be standardised ways of judging realism, as simple as that. I am just interested in that here, I am sorry that it was difficult to understand for you, you seemed on point initially, but I guess fast forward you got drunk. Quit alcohol, man.

    @Filip It wasn't the best title :D

    Here I have this idea about how the sliding friction of the car could be judged, it is actually very much what Devin wrote in Discord today. If you are able to find real life example of car spinning out and sliding on tarmac totally sideways, you pretty much would only have to replicate that in simulation. If car stops sliding much earlier, then sliding friction is too high, obviously.

    Thats probably one the most simple thing how to judge realism. Of course it is very approximate. We can have these things mentioned that are purely empirical, all about observations https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-definition-of-an-empirical-study

    For example it should be relatively easy to approximately tell somethign about peak slip angles just by looking at cars and seeing how much they can step out and still continue on carying speed, how much they can slide before they significantly slow down. An angle where vehicle control appears to become chaotic must be over a peak slip angle.

    By looking at speed in which vehicle switch from nice planted base grip, to fully sliding grip should tell about how quickly a vehicle looses grip further after peak slip angle or slip ratio or both at a time as shown per traction eclipse.

    Watching cars loosing rear end while slowing down into a corner should suggest about multiple things, weight transfer, brake bias, brake fade, engine braking, geometry features such as camber loss with wheels going down (when car dives, just like it is with Formula Vee)...

    Car loosing grip at increasing high speed at certain end is almost certainly lack of downforce, or even lift appearance sign, depending on car.

    By watching the way car rolls and pitches can tell a lot about its geometry and stiffness.

    Much more to mention here.
     
  6. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    me to carry out such observations by watching real videos. Videos that are best for observations are pole laps or hotlaps done by real drivers as oppsed to race lap. why? because during pole lap the driver will use every bit of grip available in doing so many characters of cars are shined through over the limit PLUS the setup in hotlap or pole lap is done is such a way that the car will give maximum performace at the cost of some stability or predictability ofcourse no one goes full mad while setting up but genrally qualifying setup is much aggressive.
     
  7. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    I don't have much to add to this thread other than agree that it would be very nice to figure out good ways to evaluate the level of realism in sims. In the best case scenario this kind of thing might give game developers incentive to actually achieve a good level of realism instead of just trying to give impression and get the reputation of being realistic.
     
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  8. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I agree, but I think any drive can offer some clues that would be just as good. What does matter is just to see how car reacts on the limit in tight situation in certain moment, doesn't have to be full lap, doesn't even have to be a race. I agree about fastest laps being best material, but it may also be hard to see things if driver would perform it super cleanly, it could be difficult to tell much without good data reading.

    Here is just testing lap at 2:25 a rear steps out with TC on 2 in the very exit of that slowish turn, can get a bit of idea about how this car slips. Quite easily with some acceleration and a bit of slip angle. It is for sure not a pole lap, but car was on the limit that moment.


    This detail tells that you can't easily use full throttle with TC on 2 in such car at the exit of the ~100km/h ~50m radius curve with no camber.
     
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  9. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Honestly in RF2 i never get such behaviour all gt cars are quite tamed.
    In acc though i do get something like this maybe not as abrupt as this but much abrupt than RF2

    P.S ->> Great video btw
     
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  10. xerofer

    xerofer Registered

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    Gosh, really?
    This is so much pike onto but, it’s laughable...

    Where are your numbers without bleeding out of your but?

    Just pushing one EGO up to front, while crapping on existing ground...

    Well done, NATO Victim...
     
  11. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    Your username sounds like some antidepressant so I guess you chose it so it reminds you which medic to take in the morning?
    Btw I can't see your numbers I guess it's the other medication that takes care of digits?
    You really should(n't) drink more (meds).
     
  12. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    Maybe you aren't pushing hard enough then. If you take a look at the best laps from the WFG competitions you will notice that the fast drivers use slips and slides pretty much in every corner with relatively low TC settings to turn the car faster while using pretty edgy setups. Finding the right balance is actually the difficult part and I guess most of us woulnd't be able to use those setups.
     
  13. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @Filip Thats almost exactly what I thought as well :D That guy is attacking for no reason, maybe is he just aiming to ruin the thread.

    @hitm4k3r Yes they do slip and slide indeed, but just differently. We are talking about subtle differences here, which actually has big difference on experience. In my opinion ACC tires grip behaviour is sharper and more true to life, but rF2 may just be simulating totally different tire, which maybe also is realistic, but... thats why we need to find good ways to judge things.
     
  14. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Yes RF2 is simulating different tyre but still it is a slick tyres you know.
    The general behaviour of slick tyres is basically the same what changes is their operating window,life cycle etc.
     
  15. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    yes i have been told this already that i don't push hard enough etc but i know how to drive ofc i'm not a pro driver but far from noob since i have been into simulator for easily over 4 years now, so you really think that i can't seriously push any car to their limits?
    at my first year into sims i was putting WR in DR1(atleast in top 15)with GROUP B lancia 037 without any ffb(because i turned them off),Now in acc i'm just 0.5-0.8 seconds behind top rank laptimes.
    So i do know how to overdrive properly and push exactly at limits.
     
  16. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    That does sound pretty fast, man. Even though 4 years actually is not much, but I know that there are talents who gets fast much faster than everyone else, and then peaks higher. From the sound of it you could have taken repectable position in WFG2 leaderboards, as taking myself as a refference I am similarly off pace in ACC leaderboards, as I was in WFG2 leaderboards.
     
  17. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Thanks mate.Even though i've done good hotlaps in some tracks but most of the time consistency matters just like IRL. I generally get bored or lose concentration around 20 or so laps and then i just turn off the P.C lol. Also looking at screen does put strain on my eyes so...
    I just generally plays sims to go for a fun and fast ride have fun with setups,drive different cars etc not much into racing though.

    P.S ->> Also 4 years is quite a long time to git gud IMO...still thanks for compliments. I don't want to boast to post my laptimes or whatever but when people say that i probably didn't drive it at limits is just stupid IMO because No.1 thing anyone will do in any simulator is overdrive the sh*t outta every car because no consequences to do so.
     
  18. mr.Sw1tchblade

    mr.Sw1tchblade Registered

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    I think we(i) need ffb standard 1st. At list within 1 steering wheel type (eg rim wheels). I have access to different rig setups. And from my experience the same software feels absolutely different depending on hardware setup.
     
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  19. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Thats good idea to gauge specificts that influence Force Feedback and use that for a beginning. That should not be super difficult, I think :D At least for one steering wheel type.

    What do you need to know ? Self aligning force versus slip angle and vertcal load and friction level ? Gyroscopic forces ? Caster effects ? How self aligning moment works in case of oversteer ? Bumps ? Scrub radius ? Tramlining ? Steering system (thats confusing one) ? Whats more ?
     
  20. Andregee

    Andregee Registered

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    I find the tyres in ACC too wide of the limit. You have to drive over the cars to be fast. The cars drive like in AC totally spongy. On 3 monitors or in VR one recognizes this well by the high FOV. One steers to the left and violently to the right, but due to the high inertia, the vehicle follows for a short moment still the left movement although the steering wheel points already to the right. The physice guy Von Kunos himself created the Power &Glory Mod and who knows the original GT Legends, knows the differences and the handwriting of the gentleman. Hectic behaviour at the limits is compensated by the Inertia. In the said mod all vehicles feel twice as heavy as in GT Legends and exactly this behaviour was transferred to AC and now ACC. There was a time when I thought that was good. I liked driving the Cobra in the Power & Glory Mod and there it felt almost identical to the one in AC. Then I compared them to the one in Rfactor2 and wondered about the agility of the Cobra in Rfactor2. After studying the data, I realized that a 1000kg vehicle should never feel as heavy and sluggish as it does in AC and P&G. And so the whole thing was transferred to ACC.
     
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