Released Released | Tatuus MSV F3-020 2020 (Free Car)

Discussion in 'News & Notifications' started by Paul Jeffrey, Jul 28, 2021.

  1. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    Where is the official statement that M4 uses some new tire model?
     
  2. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I can't quickly find anything from a dev with the indications, but:

    The tyre model hasn't changed. No code changes. They did say the tyres were built using things they had learnt, so a changed approach to building the tyres (their 'physical structure', but still run through the same build process and physics code) to achieve better behaviour. The GT cars had a lot to do with what they learnt, I believe.

    I personally don't like the tendency to call this a new tyre model, and I wouldn't call anything since the release of rF2 a new tyre model. Some people are comfortable calling 'new physical tyres' a new model just because they handle differently. *shrug*
     
  3. pilAUTO

    pilAUTO Registered

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    Let's say this is a shortcut that is commonly done (and I did) and is handy for defining a significant or noticeable improvement in tire model.

    Actually I don't care if they change the tire model, all that matters is that there are significant improvements """regularly""" to reach an extremely satisfying level of realism after a while.

    I believe they said in the RFpro news (not check) that the tires had been improved in the same way as for the M4, and I really feel personally that the last tatuus has these tires (FFB but also physics).

    In short, I would like to see that S397 now understands the importance of reprioritizing their todo list and prioritizing these physics developments.

    In my opinion if they do it in 1 or 2 years it will be too late, not to mention that it is extremely frustrating from my point of view.
     
  4. Bill Worrel

    Bill Worrel Registered

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    I couldn't find that either.

    The only official statement I could find about new tires is in the Formula Pro news release and it specifically says that it's not a new tire model.

    "In order to bring as much realism and variety into the driving experience as possible, we have worked extensively with the world renowned Goodyear brand to develop a much more detailed and realistic tyre for this new car. Although not a new tyre model as such, we have been fortunate enough to have access to considerable amounts of data from Goodyear for this project, which has given us the opportunity to look much deeper into how our tyres behave within the simulation, how the forces are applied and react with our physics engine, and how we can hopefully improve both the feeling and behaviour on or over the limit out on track."
     
  5. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    i think community missunderstoond the point of more tire data info as new tire model ? or something
    which means New BMW has more data info in the allready known tire model
    so no new tire model just more data on how it reacts-behave at the limit
     
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  6. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    Is there any real life on-board footage of this? Trying to find out if you really have to drift to get temperature in the tyres.
     
  7. juanchioooo

    juanchioooo Registered

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    Skidding to put the tires in temperature? ..., I doubt that this will be done in reality, just by going fast in the curves the friction that it generates already raises the temperature enough, going further will only overheat the tire
     
  8. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Skidding to put on temperature on tires to go faster is real technique in the wet. Basically in wet tracks if you can go faster, you'll be able to go even more faster. Same should apply to tires that are difficult to heat up to optimal temperatures. Although the process of skidding can be too taxing on pace, and tire wear, but if it isn't it must be worth it.

    If my thinking is correct, these tires are made of hard rubber, naturally they won't heat up as easily. Certainly they have good resistance to wear. Do I remember correctly this car has only one compound for dry ? I don't remember, but quick search on google says F3 uses soft med and hards. Did S397 decided to get fixated on single compounds till issues that makes using various compounds are going to be eliminated ? That would makes sense.

    ****
    By the way, just watched Gamer muscle. As expected - talking, judging and influencing without having any clue. He almost lost the car in very realistic way at high speed having snap oversteer or neutral steer, and his verdict was "lacking FFB from rear", even though he did catch several nice oversteers before. Years of simracing, speaking to thousands of people and still haven't managed to get familiar with at least basics of vehicle dynamics. But it was interesting to listen what average simracer will say, and unfortunately it was as expected. "FFB from rear" LOL
     
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  9. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    So you are confident that S397 GT3 driving behaviour is more realistic then let's say ISI Renault Clio?
     
  10. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    In the wet... I am talking about in the dry though.

    ****
    What he meant was under braking, which I have to say, I agree. The locking up as well. You just dont feel the lock up. This was also in the rF2 promo video, where the pro driver locked up and didn't even seem to notice it.
     
  11. pilAUTO

    pilAUTO Registered

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    Dude, do what you want, use the content you want.

    Even if these cars use little or no real data, I prefer to use as a reference the 5 FWD cars of the ETCC (slow motion) mod.

    Much more convincing than the Clio which was good for the time. For the era. In 2014-2015. 6-7 years ago. Things are changing.
     
  12. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @Remco Majoor I meant dry too, but for some reason wanted to point out a thing about driving in a wet. Hard compounds in dry will probably require some more scrubbing. I am a fan of harder compounds - still lots of grip, more economical, more ecological, provides better show due to more sliding.

    ****

    As for agreeing with Gamermuscle, I am surprised. So you agree with his way of thinking ? This is what he replied to me:
    "You are making the mistake of thinking that Sims have to be 100% literal in FFB, they often aren't and shouldn't be if they want to allow people to drive in a similar way to reality without the use of a motion rig."

    He is for throwing out realistic vehicle simulation, in exchange of subjective "seat feel" which can't be measured, can't be tied in with car dynamics, doesn't have anything to do with steering forces... In other words cars are how they are, and what he is asking is for them to become different. He obviously just simply doesn't care about accurate physics. I would probably agree with his thinking if it was about games and simcades, or lower tier simulations. rF2, iRacing are above this. ACC was also above this at first, but they quickly did a U-turn as soon as they learn what majority of their audience asks for back in early access release... This must be faced and debated, because it is a threat to proper simulation. And GM is so clueless about how simulation is stitched together and how cars works, he truly believes in himself, and promotes absolutely critical break of ways of perceiving what is realism.

    No he didn't meant under braking. Look here at 23:05, and up till the end of video:


    I can see how things that he is believing in and spreading towards people are appealing. It is what average guy who is struggling with a car will want to hear. It is a path to simcade or arcade. For the whole video he was not driving this car too gently, caught lots of oversteers. And by the end he was visibly shaken for how unexpected and sudden that one was. Refused to consider that it could have been his mistake, and looked for a reason for a while, ended up blaming FFB. And this guy is probably paid for pushing everything on FFB all the time, he is probably paid to promote FFB hardware, the more they say that everything is "FFB" the more they sell the hardware. They are not interested to look into physics, it is always "FFB".

    Look at the video. In my opinion this moment was very realistic, and I also think it was impressive save by staying on the tarmac. He obviously did turn in just tiny bit too sudden, perhaps created tiny bit of understeer for fraction of a second, which led to snap oversteer, or just simply sudden turn-in caused sudden oversteer. And due to the fact that now S397 actually made realistic tires, and they speak fast. It was too fast for GM and hurt his ego, and probably created an opportunity to promote his FFB emphasis.

    It hurts to listen what he says next. Saddest thing is that these things kills great physics, if devs decides to listen to this kind of ideas. They can not put in canned effects such as, just read it out loud - "FFB from the rear". What they would need to do, would be making tire less sharp, aero less sensitive, also probably increasing caster, making steering ratio faster... in other words making physics of a car different.... real F3 driver Callan O’Keeffe COUNFIMRED this car to be realistic, and stil normies would listen to GM, because he tells them what they want to hear, false that it is not drivers mistake by any chance - it is lack of information from FFB... Yeah right, get back to reality kids.

    As for braking and locking up real pro driver, how do you know he didn't notice it ?
     
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  13. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    Since I said he didn't SEEM to notice, the better question is why do I think/believe he didn't notice. So I will answer that rather than the "how do you know" which I never said I did.

    But to answer the correct question, it is simply by the way he reacts to it (not at all). In T1 he locked up both front wheels, didn't say a word, didn't brace for correcting it, hell, he didn't even miss the corner like on usually does when locking up both fronts. Compare that to the corner complex after Kemmel where he had tiny corrections. He instantly tensed up and talked about it. After that he seemed like he had a lock up into speakers corner, no reaction again. He simply lets go of the brakes and turns in like nothing has happened. It to me feels like the car doesnt slow down less when locking up.
     
  14. bobbie424242

    bobbie424242 Registered

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    The next big thing in sims will be YouTuber-pleasing physics(tm): advanced AI-driven YouTube-friendly physics that adapts to whatever physics a YouTuber expects in his YouTuber brain, so he only ever have positive things to say, his ego preserved, and he can mindlessly drive to perfection while chatting and interacting with his audience.
    Oh, in fact it already exists in the form of GT3. So I hope sim developers are listening and will retrofit GT3 physics in all their car models /s. Less is more. Make F1, 70's, 80's, 90's and all other cars handle like GT3 and YouTubers will love you.
     
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  15. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Wow, you can really see the butthurt raise slowly from his spine then messing completely with his self confidence. ahahahhaha
     
  16. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Yes it was funny lol To be honest, it was impressive save to me, but it definitely looked like ego and self confidence was affected by having a car almost completely lost for fraction of a second. I'd be proud about such save though. But the shear disbelieve that he did a mistake is very funny there, would be funny if not what he speaks afterwards and that many people will agree with that.

    You might be right.

    However that could be separate discussion, and FFB could be just one of the things that could be potential thing that is lacking. If there is something lacking. The driver could also possibly just not be caring about tires in this run. Also if that is hard compound and also that is a virtual tire, driver might have zero care about lockups when he does few laps just for a video. I personally don't think that most race cars would be designed in such way that lockups would transfer forces into steering, they would with too much scrub radius.

    The thing if enough deceleration is lost due to lockup is another question again. Interesting one. I think about it sometimes. On one hand deceleration should be lost. But it can be seen in real life races and fast laps, that drivers do have quite dramatic lockups sometimes when pushing braking to the extremes, and they often doesn't seem to lift of brake untill enough speed is scrubbed off. I find myself doing the same in simracing in some occasions. For example racing in 60s Lemans with cars I work on, braking after the straight and overshooting the turn always leaves for split second decision - to ease off brakes and go off track, or lockup, sacrifice tire for flat spot and perhaps still make a turn. I don't know exactly what goes on. I guess that when speed is low enough and distance left for sliding is small enough and it is not wet, ice or something slippery on the surface, sliding friction could be good enough to decelerate the car, maybe. I don't know, it is very interesting. Brakes themselves operate by using sliding friction too, just different materials, pressures... I also know that in rF2 abrasive wear affects sliding friction. If the tires wear not fast, they take more energy to shred while sliding and that could help having a bit better deceleration with locked tire ? However... softer rubber would go deeper into tarmac irregularities aka more machanical keying goes on and that should increase resistance, but then.... alright, I guess I'll just stop now :D
     
  17. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    This is backwards to me, from watching real life racing and from years of playing rFactor.

    Cadence braking aside, those last-moment lockups provide a choice between:
    • Ease off the brakes, straighten up the steering, stop the lockup then reapply brakes to take the excess speed off. Then drive a wide line around the corner, or
    • Keep braking, enter the corner too fast, understeer off the outside at mid corner or exit.
    Both ways lose time, but the first saves your tyres.

    If there's a third option you probably weren't at the limit on the way into the corner.
     
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  18. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    I don't want to look at 26 minutes video, what kind of lockups are you talking about? Those where tires stop completely or those that just make tires smoke?
     
  19. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    this is not about the bald tea guy, this is about the promo video of rF2
     
  20. juanchioooo

    juanchioooo Registered

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    In real life it brakes hard with the pedal pressed all the way down and then it gradually releases, right?:rolleyes:
     

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