please ISI more vintage

Jamie Shorting said:
lower the steering lock. Other than that it sounds like you're expecting it to drive like a modern prototype.

I'm not a fast guy but if I can drive this thing, you can too. This is a lap of mine at spa, only had the car a day or two.


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Jamie, just look at the very, very first turn (the initial left) in your video. The car just goes right into it and you have like 3 degrees of steering lock on. The car just turns on it's own, yet the rear isn't really swinging around like a pendulum either. To make matters worse, the car can behave like that even when not being pushed. I've noticed this trait, here and there, in quite a few cars in ISI engine based sims over the years. The only way to seem to get rid of it is to purposely put a crapload of understeer into the car either by setup or by just physically turning the wheel too much and inducing understeer that way.



- Watch the quick-ish, on power left hander at 0:50 , and for a different style corner the right hander at 0:37 (the left hander is a better example because it's quicker and he is on the power) - the car needs to be steered, you need to turn the tyres.
- Also (different issue) the quick right hander at 1:30, you can see that the rear is getting very iffy from the corner entry to the apex, he needs to hesitate and stop on his applying of more lock into the corner and then add more again, a few times, because of the rear getting "squirly", he his making many mini-corrections on his turn-in , however the corrections are direct, the car is not flopping around as if it's chassis is made out of an elastic band or as if the car has been setup to behave like, literally, a modern purpose built drift car.

The car is very low grip, very sketchy and willing to slide, as it should be and as is the rF2 variant, however the real-life one is direct in it slides, it's not flopping around, the corrections and mini-slides can be quickly and directly corrected and taken care of rather than being so "slidey" and drifty as if the car is floating on a pillow of air and the tyres are hardly touching the ground.


Now I haven't done much with the rF2 version in terms of setup. Other than giving it a slower rack, it was just the stock setup. I know sometimes ISI setups aren't the best, but even for a bad setup, it just seems very wrong physics/tyre behaving wise especially considering the behavior occurring even while going very slowly, even while only giving tiny amounts of steering, brake, or throttle application. Maybe the stock setup is so absolutely horrendous that it would lead one to think that the problem is with physics rather than setup, but that would have to be the mother of all bad setups.
 
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Spinelli said:
Jamie, just look at the very, very first turn (the initial left) in your video. The car just goes right into it and you have like 3 degrees of steering lock on. The car just turns on it's own, yet the rear isn't really swinging around like a pendulum either. To make matters worse, the car can behave like that even when not being pushed. I've noticed this trait, here and there, in quite a few cars in ISI engine based sims over the years. The only way to seem to get rid of it is to purposely put a crapload of understeer into the car either by setup or by just physically turning the wheel too much and inducing understeer that way.



- Watch the quick-ish, on power left hander at 0:50 , and for a different style corner the right hander at 0:37 (the left hander is a better example because it's quicker and he is on the power) - the car needs to be steered, you need to turn the tyres.
- Also (different issue) the quick right hander at 1:30, you can see that the rear is getting very iffy from the corner entry to the apex, he needs to hesitate and stop on his applying of more lock into the corner and then add more again, a few times, because of the rear getting "squirly", he his making many mini-corrections on his turn-in , however the corrections are direct, the car is not flopping around as if it's chassis is made out of an elastic band or as if the car has been setup to behave like, literally, a modern purpose built drift car.

The car is very low grip, very sketchy and willing to slide, as it should be and as is the rF2 variant, however the real-life one is direct in it slides, it's not flopping around, the corrections and mini-slides can be quickly and directly corrected and taken care of rather than being so "slidey" and drifty as if the car is floating on a pillow of air and the tyres are hardly touching the ground.
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Did you take into account what tyres is he using? Driving a historic car doesn't automatically mean driving with historic tyres.
 
Spinelli said:
..Also (different issue) the quick right hander at 1:30, you can see that the rear is getting very iffy from the corner entry to the apex, he needs to hesitate and stop on his applying of more lock into the corner and then add more again, a few times, because of the rear getting "squirly", he his making many mini-corrections on his turn-in , however the corrections are direct, the car is not flopping around as if it's chassis is made out of an elastic band or as if the car has been setup to behave like, literally, a modern purpose built drift car.

...rather than (the virtual car) being so "slidey" and drifty as if the car is floating on a pillow of air and the tyres are hardly touching the ground.
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We've all got our own opinions on handling & physics, & I'm with Spinelli on this one; it's just too loose for me

Anyway Jamie I watched your vid & am well impressed - you should be driving a BTCC car ..I couldn't get the G4 round Old Spa at half that speed!

nb. If this car also eventually receives an overhaul by the ISI dev guys, maybe the cockpit could be freshened up a little to look more like the dark one in the Silverstone Classic vid? :)
 
Reading about Lola T70, one thing that gets mentioned is its excellent directional stability. In rfactor 2 it is a tank slapper, like all the vintage, low-downforce cars. Something is not right.
 
Mhh, noone seems to realize that we drive the Lola (Howsten) in the sim
in a completely different way than the guys in Real life, because we don´t have to fear injury or death.
 
Meh, I give up. People will believe what they want to believe. Heck, I even showed motec data to disprove some people here and they still didn't change their mind. :p
 
It just seems some people have an expectation as to how a certain car drives, without ever having driven it.
Maybe they've read about it, heard about it, whatever.
When the car in the sim doesn't live up to this expectation:
BOOM!!! Bad physics, shame on ISI, bad bad simulation developers lol. :rolleyes:

It's just a matter of being able to adapt to how the car actually handles, all prejudice aside.
Sure I will listen to (and to some degree bow down to) someone who has actually driven the thing, IRL.
Anything else is just pretty silly. The Howston handles like it handles. Deal with it, enjoy it, or don't enjoy it and leave it.
That's just sim racing for ya... It's as close as most of us will ever get.
 
Spinelli said:
The car requires almost no steering lock to turn. It's like a go kart, even worse. I even tried slowing the steering rack. You can be going way under the limit on a slow outlap yet throughout some turns you literally do not even have to steer the car through them because the dart-iness of the car's front-end combined with the rear constantly swinging around as if it's tyres aren't even in contact with the ground (seems like there's no friction) means that even in slow outlaps you are still driving the car with opposite lock on corner entry or mid corner of some corners. For example - the tunnel at Monaco - I literally drive through it with my wheel almost pointing straight, maybe even turned slightly left, even on very slow laps. Then at the super tight casino hairpin, even at extremely slow speeds, the front tyres start really understeering and sliding bad at way to little of steering lock, also it takes little lock to get around that corner because the tyres don't allow you to "lean" on them even at 30 km/h, they just get into this state of slide and slide way too early, and same with the rear, which therefore allows you to get around so many corners with such little lock because the rear does the same thing, it way too easily starts sliding and sliding. This trait of the rear-end so easily coming around and rotating the car on entry and mid-corner, will therefore allow you to easily get the car turned into the corner, which therefore may make it difficult to realize what I said above about the steering lock and front tyres.

Also, the rear can want to swing around under braking while barely touching the brake pedal (let's say 10% brake) while literally applying 10 degrees, or so, of steering lock, and this is at slow speees, and well under the limit. Think about that...the rear coming around, trail-braking style, BUT while only applying like 10% brake + hardly touching the wheel (10-ish degrees) + driving very slowly (50 Kp/h or so). That is just wrong, even for 60s technology, 60s tyres, 60s chassis, etc.

Also, the power spiking on exit with literally almost not even touching the gas. The following may be the issue (or part of it): Many cars in ISI engine based sims (including Game Stock Car) have a major issue that can easily be experienced by anybody. Push the clutch in and try to hold the revs at different RPMs, it's completely messed up. The RPMs will easily skyrocket in the upper 2/3rds of the RPM range, then if you let off the throttle slightly the revs will just drop almost all the way to idle. There's this totally messed up behaviour that seems to be part of the engine physics (engine as in the motor of the vehicle). I'm guessing that this may be the cause of some crazy power spikes even though you are only holding like 10% throttle. Try to modulate the throttle, while stopped, at different RPMs; you can experience it yourself. As a side effect, this can make blipping the throttle on downshifts on some cars very tricky beause even a very quick blip of 50% or so throttle will instantly make the revs rise to almost redline. It's like the revs rise to the top at lightning speed with such little amounts and lengths of throttle presses.

Then there is the un-directness of catching the slide (this is more car specific). Sometimes on catching on-power slides, you slide and correct one way, then the next, then back the other way, until 3 or 4 wobbles later if you are finally pointed straight again. It's a super slidey, no tyre-to-surface friction, extremely non-directness of car control. Watch many 60s and 70s cars on power, they have low grip and slide VERY easily, yes, HOWEVER there is a directness to the slide, a sense of the tyre re-gripping, rather than acting like a purposely setup drift car that constantly swings left, right, left, right all the way down the straight.

These issues seemed to have greatly improved, generally speaking, in the rFactor 2 physics engine, but some vehicles are still bad in some or all of these areas and the Howston G4 Mk3 highlights just about all of these traits, and very noticeably as well.

Further analysing...

Having the car be too sensitive while using the stock "proper" steering rack. This leads to often needing too little lock when driving around corners, especially when you drive slow and the car should therefore need much more steering lock to get around corners because it's not getting any help from the rear rotating at those lower speeds. It also leads to the car being way too overly snappy and easy to over-correct and snap the other way upon powerslide correction. Even in the karts, I need to raise the amount of wheel rotation from realistic 187 degrees to around 230 or so because something in the physics engine makes the proper amount of steering degrees seem to sensetitive at certain times, even though it's the correct steering ratio "on paper".

The rear wanting to come around, which helps you turn into the corner and therefore not need as much steering input, happens much too easily. You should have to be pushing a "decent" amount, generally speaking, in order for the rear of a vehicle to want to swing around in order to help rotate the car on turn-in and/or mid-corner. You don't just have that happening on very slow, grocery-getter, sight-seeing outlaps where you are literally just cruising. When you are crusing way under the limit, even bad, old tyres can be leaned on with more than just 10 degrees of steering lock before they start understeering and before the rear wants to start swinging around on corner-entry and mid-corner.

It's like the car limits start "kicking in" much, much too early, and once you go past them it takes too long for the tyres to regain any sort of friction with the surface. What seems to be required/needed is a bit more tyre scrubbing/"digging" from the friction which naturally slows the vehicle down as it's heavily sliding which helps the tyre regain grip as the vehicle slows down naturally due to the scrubbing of the tyre against the road surface. So then the sliding-and-sliding-on-and-on effect won't seem to last as long, yet the tyres can remain being old, "bad", slippery, low-grip tyres. The scrubbing from the slide should lead to a bit more vehicle speed-loss from the friction-scrub, that friction-scrub would then allow the tyres to act "better" and grippier, more direct, even though they are sliding and out of grip if that makes any sense. This should then lead to the tyre giving a realistic feeling of crappy, old, slippery, low-grip tyres BUT while still being somewhat direct and grippy once you are back inline and under control with them (not in a state of heavy sliding).

The low amount of total out-and-out grip isn't the problem - that should obviously not really change and therefore remain low since the tyres are old and relatively slippery - it's the behaviour of how that low-grip is expressed where some problems arise.
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Spinelli, I really like your technically advanced analysis of sim physics. Therefore I would like to know which simulated car/cars you think is the best of the best physics wise?
 
haha- :rolleyes:

useless debate about the howstens aka T70.........

....all the historics are due for an update ....please dont come back and say they 'noobed' it when the handling improves-

take your pick of things from this list that have not been done to historics yet :

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Re: NISSAN GTR/370Z, CHEVY CAMARO/CORVETTE C6.R UPDATED!
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2014, 09:28:01 pm »

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-the cars are very different now- more controllable- the only one i havent tried yet is the 370z- i really hope they improve the historics like this - soooooon

Nissan GT-R GT1 v 1.47
- Chassis flex implemented and new steering parameters.
- CG increased.
- Downforce reduction and slightly less yaw stable.
- Slightly less downforce sensitive in slip-stream.
- Updated to use new tyre mass method and slightly more accurate unsprung masses used.
- Some tyre tweaks, mostly, but not limited to wear, load sensitivity as well as grip correction for wet conditions.
- Automatic shift aid works a little better (less reluctantly).
- You now also have to blip on down-shifts as per the real car.
- Minor AI tweaks.
- Additional radiator setting to prevent overheating in high ambient temperatures.
- ‘Central’ TVCockpit / bonnet camera.
- Tweaked headlight parameters should improve night racing.
- Now using newer sound attenuation parameters.
- LOD distance tweaks
- Updated to latest shader settings
- New driver helmet
- Additional teams / liveries added
- Rim Blur added.
- *There are additional minor undocumented changes.

Nissan 370z GT4 v 1.47
- 2 versions now available, European and Dutch, which more closely match rules from specific series.
- Chassis flex implemented and new steering system.
- Suspension and steering geometry revisions, that more closely resembles the real car (steering has an increase in ackermann).
- Caster range reduced.
- Slightly stronger suspension.
- CG increased, further forward and more laterally offset.
- Slight downforce reduction.
- Slightly less downforce sensitive in slip-stream.
- Minor setup tweaks.
- Gear ratios replaced.
- Brake system completely recalculated.
- Updated to use new tyre mass method and slightly more accurate unsprung masses used.
- Some tyre tweaks, mostly, but not limited to wear, load sensitivity as well as grip correction for wet conditions.
- Minor AI tweaks.
- ‘Central’ TVCockpit / bonnet camera.
- Tweaked headlight parameters should improve night racing.
- Now using newer sound attenuation parameters.
- Updated to latest shader settings
- New driver helmet
- Rim blur added.
- New team liveries added.
- Fixed reversed / mirrored logo on the side.
- Fixed wheel shadow height.
- *As usual there are some small additional undocumented changes.
- **Previous setups will likely be obsolete, but the car should no longer have major revisions in the future as data is more complete.

Chevrolet Camaro GT3 v 1.49
- CG raised
- Minor setup tweak
- Updated to use new tyre mass method and slightly more accurate unsprung masses used.
- Some tyre tweaks, mostly, but not limited to wear, load sensitivity as well as grip correction for wet conditions.
- Slight downforce reduction and drag increased.
- Minor AI tweaks.
- Small engine torque correction.
- Slight increase in shift duration, ignition cuts more correctly on upshifts also.
- Slight damage tweak (suspension a tiny bit stronger).
- Wheel / brake shadowing issue resolved
- Updated to latest shader settings
- New driver helmet

Chevrolet Corvette C6.R GT2 v 1.49
- Weight distribution adjusted.
- Force upshift ignition cut.
- More accurate steering range and lock including new variable steering ratio system.
- Updated to use new tyre mass method and slightly more accurate unsprung masses used.
- Slight geometry tweak.
- Some tyre tweaks, mostly, but not limited to wear, load sensitivity as well as grip correction for wet conditions.
- 2009 & 2010 spec engines available.
- Reduction in overall downforce level and slight increase in yaw sensitivity.
- Small AI tweaks.
- Slight damage tweak.
- Updated shader settings
- Fixed the rear diffuser shape
- Now using latest driver helmet
- Rim blur was added
- *There are additional small undocumented fixes not noted in logs
 
Spinelli said:
Before a classic open wheel update, the Howston desperately need an update; I'm not sure about all of them but I drove the "lowest" model G4 (67 Mk3) yesterday and it was absolutely atrocious to drive. Embarrassing in terms of physics, absolutely terrible. It highlights many areas, badly, of typical ISI physics/tyre engine issues.
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Just an FYI that the "lowest" model is actually the most powerful and worst wheels/tires of any of the variants. It is the hardest to drive/control. Not sure why ISI made it the default, other than they have a tendency to do things like that ;)

Based on your comments about karts, I think you should also check your controller settings. Shouldn't have to adjust the default lock on anything ISI. PM me if you want to discuss further.
 
And some clueless people with no idea how the vintage cars did perform in real life think that their ****eness is OK, because it's a sim and none of us has driven them in real life, lol.
 
The only problem with howstons is that default setup has a sloppy differential lock, as soon as you give it a decent amount of lock, it start to be a perfectly raceable and predictable car that can be driven around the track like it would be expected from such kind of car. The difference is day and night : with a loose differential this car is undrivable for me.
 
Comante said:
The only problem with howstons is that default setup has a sloppy differential lock, as soon as you give it a decent amount of lock, it start to be a perfectly raceable and predictable car that can be driven around the track like it would be expected from such kind of car. The difference is day and night : with a loose differential this car is undrivable for me.
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You can apply like 5 degrees of steering lock on the entry to a corner and the rear wants to start slipping and sliding around, I hope this is just due to a sloppy differential setting (diff coast/off-throttle setting). I will test soon.
 
Just a suggestion but if this thread is about motivating ISI to do more historic vehicles perhaps we should be less critical. There is another looooooooooong thread with plenty of criticisms. Why not make this one about how historic vehicles are the best vehicles.
 
The classic open wheel cars are amazing to drive. I wish somebody set up a multiclass server with the classic F3s, F2s, and F1s, that would be so cool. Imagine a field of 30 (or more) cars - 10 F3, 10 F2, 10 F1 - with each class consisting of 5 Eves and 5 Sparks. I'm drooling.
 
P.S.R. said:
Just a suggestion but if this thread is about motivating ISI to do more historic vehicles perhaps we should be less critical. There is another looooooooooong thread with plenty of criticisms. Why not make this one about how historic vehicles are the best vehicles.
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About the only intelligent and constructive thing I've heard all day.
THANK you. :)
 
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