OSW, 1:1 FFB, Power-Steering

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Spinelli, Feb 17, 2016.

  1. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    I should be receiving my OSW in the next week or two and heard that rFactor 2 may output/generate too much virtual Nm of torque (and therefore too much torque output from my wheel when running 1:1 FFB) for most cars because it still doesn't model any types of power-steering systems.

    Most cars today, racecars included, do use power-steering (as-well as suspension geometry which would otherwise be almost un-driveable without power-steering). Obviously all power-steering systems are different, and offer different amounts of assistance as-well as feel, but without getting all technical and complex, will rFactor 2 ever be modelling at-least some sort of power-steering (even if it's relatively basic) so as to have most cars generating a more realistic amount of virtual Nm and behavior?
     
  2. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Each car has a 'nominal maximum steering torque' parameter which determines what fraction of FFB to output, so it is very much possible to somewhat mimic the effect of power steering (increasing the value means all calculated steering arm torque values are a lower percentage of it, resulting in less FFB at the steering wheel). This is not to say any cars presently do this, and it could be seen as unrealistic because it's not a power steering system that could fail and result in higher FFB (but we can probably guess such failures aren't coming soon, so no real impact). It's up to the modder to set that value and probably let the user know how they're approaching it.

    So, yes, possible already, in a manner.
     
  3. Rapala

    Rapala Registered

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    Spinelli, I thought you just got a new motor for your wheel and were loving it. What happened?
     
  4. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    That's literally just lowering or upping the FFB, not power-steering. If all I wanted to do was lower my FFB, I could just go into rFactor 2, go to settings, and lower the FFB Multi, and wouldn't have created a thread as everyone knows how to do that. By the way, "nominal maximum steering torque" is most likely disabled when running high amounts of "steering torque capability".

    Power-steering is not literally the same as just simply lowering overall force. Not to mention, even if I used that method, how would I know how much to lower each car by? How would I know which car runs power steering at all?

    I don't think simply lowering the game's/car's FFB strength setting a solution.

    Ya, the CSW V2 is an awesome wheel with the Porsche 918 RSR rim and Formula rim (severely disappointed with it's performance when using the BMW M3 GT2 rim though) but I always wanted something more powerful. Not so much for better feel or whatever but I just like the workout, the sweating, the worrying of pain/injury, the effort required (physically, which has a knock-on affect of draining you mentally too), and so on :) . Same with my brakes. Load cells (pressure based as opposed to distance based) and more and more Kg of force hardly makes a difference for me, in-fact, once I have my braking sensitivity set correctly, I can drive even faster and more consistent with non-load-cell, light force, brakes yet I still use a load cell with a high Kg setting.

    More effort and sweat = more fun and immersive.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2016
  5. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    Long story short, it's not possible to simulate power steering because power steering requires knowing how much torque the driver is applying to the steering wheel, just like in real life.

    The best tools i can think of at our disposal to (very) rudimentarily simulate it's effect are lowering the ffb multiplier (or raising the nmst as suggested by lazza) and/or lowering the sts.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2016
  6. Led566

    Led566 Registered

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    That's what I do with my OSW.
     
  7. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    I just think that lowering multiblier is like having power steering without its drawbacks and i also think that steering feel can't be too good in sim use because you are already lacking lot of the other information you get in real life.
     
  8. Z06Trackman

    Z06Trackman Registered

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    +1. As I said when I first got my AF wheel: I can easily drive the F1 car and Skippy with AF and with my Lower end Fanatec I couldn't drive those cars at all.
     
  9. Axe

    Axe Registered

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    lets consider another approach:
    DW 12 without power steering generates top steering forces and drivers have to tackle with them. So when you "disable" power steering on most of other cars (excluding F1 e.g.) you will still have to tackle with lesser forces than in DW12. Yes that would be very physically demanding and not realistic (if we excluding power steering failure, which can occur also in reality). But when effort and sweating is a big part of fun...
    And regarding realism/si,mulating I would say this approach is on par with adjusting FFB multiplier.
     
  10. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    You don't say!

    Should I have said it again? Sheesh!

    If you don't want that suggestion then mention it in your post, and I won't.



    Well as I did mention, that would be up to the modder. I don't think getting the user to do it is a reasonable substitute at all.
     
  11. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    You're not understanding. It can't be up to a modder because A. nominal max torque is most likely ignored when you set a high enough steering torque capability. And also, this shouls come from the game's physics side because the game in-fact does generate a virtual amount of torque from physics and that torque will be way too high if the car is supposed to have power steering.

    Eg. I heard the Aussie V8 supercars can do around 20 Nm in real life and they do run power steering. So if the game is modelling this with a decent amount of accuracy then the game-car's phyics will be generating way too much torque because it isn't using power steering. You see what I mean? Plus, you shouldn't have to rely on some artificial hack-job and therefore simply scale down overall/master FFB. What is this, the 90s?


    P.S. Does anyone know if IRacing's power steering is literally just an overall/master FFB strength slider dialed down or is there some more coding/modelling behind it?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 19, 2016
  12. DrR1pper

    DrR1pper Registered

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    Spin, there is no way to correctly model power steering in a remotely realistic manner. The closest but crudest way available is to simply lower the torque range and/or manipulate the ffb's linearity (e.g. through STS).

    Power steering works on the principle of what torque is being applied to the steering system by the driver, not what torque is being applied to the steering system by the tyre-road interaction. Since there is no physical means by which to measure the torque applied by the driver, correctly modeling power steering is impossible.
     
  13. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I'm not sure that in practice power steering has any noticeable effect apart from reducing the force required to turn the wheel. Interested to hear the details though. (if it were significantly detrimental you'd think racing teams would try to avoid it)

    And yes, good point on the nominal max torque, the force will come back to the calculated torque when that parameter is exceeded by the user-defined wheel capability. But, the new steering system also makes it very easy to manipulate the generated torque by altering the distance between the end of the steering column and the steering rack (simple leverage). Then the adjustment becomes part of the calculation, not just a multiplier on top - though actually it's acting like a multiplier, just done at the suspension (chassis file) level.

    Given the nature of power steering systems, how would you hope it would be implemented?
     
  14. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    Wear proper race suit, gloves, helmet, turn a room heater on and close the windows and doors.

    p
     
  15. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    I agree with Paul in that lowering STS is not Power Steering. i'm pretty sure lowering the STS will still produce the same peak output.

    Kimi Raikonnen is very particular about the power steering system in his car. I remember Lotus having to make many different systems for him. I think it's highly over-simplyfying things by just thinking that power steering is literally the same as simply lowering/raising overall FFB strength of a sim. i don't buy that at all.

    On a sort of related note. Many cars have front-suspension geometry that would otherwise be undriveable without power steering. My dad's power steering broke while I was driving it like 15 years ago and I could barely drive it home (luckily it only happened a few blocks away). It was way more difficult than any non-power-steering racecar i've dver driven. I'm guessing that's due to the car (dad's) having a front suspension geometry that would otherwise be undriveable without power steering. That means that a game-car designed with a front suspension that is made for power-steering in real-life could potentially be outputting a relatively even higher amount of forces to us gamers because the sim is running that same "undriveable" front suspension geometry but without power steering in the mix.


    I also think that part of the problem with proper modelling of power-steering as-well as things like proper game-physics dampening/friction have to do with the current FFB technology/method used (torque based instead of position based like Leo Bodnar and some others said is the "proper" way to do it) but that's a whole-nother discussion for a different thread.


    It would be really cool of we made a sort-of general repository for DD wheel owners and FFB settings on this site. Suggested FFB multipliers for RF2 cars which have power steering in real-life could be part of the thread for people looking to run 1:1 FFB.

    My room is a heater when I race in it. Holy it gets hot in there, lol.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2016
  16. Marek Lesniak

    Marek Lesniak Car Team Staff Member

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    There's some truth to it (a geometry that otherwise, without power-steering incorporated into the design, could have been different) but the reason it required a lot of effort, is because you had to move all that hydraulic fluid through the power steering system and the pump on your own.

    As DrR1pper said, it's not possible to implement correct power-steering simulation without some significant changes to the way FFB works (read about EPS and how it's implemented in real cars).
    But, we are not very far away without it, with race cars. Take Megane Trophy for example, where typical steering torque generated when going through corners is in the range of 8-9Nm. You get more when going over rumble strips and that's where power-steering would be useful. But, as other guys said already, you can add a bit of filtering. FFB mult (which alters NominalMaxSteeringTorque) limits FFB torque to whatever level you want.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2016
  17. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Oh ya. I guess now I'm the one guilty of over-simplifying things. I totally forgot about that part. Thanks, Lesi.

    Ya, I totally agree (regarding the current way FFB is done in games - torque based method rather than the proper position based method).

    If i have my wheel set to 1:1 FFB with say a v8 supercar or F1 car or, heck, even a stock Corvette road car, my wheel will be outputting way more force than the real-life one because the game is sending the raw data VS the data which would have been manipulated from power steering. So this can be sort of worked around by adjusting FFB multi - OK, we'll make do for now with that method - but the question then becomes "how much percent do I have to lower any and every car's FFB multi which uses power steering"? I don't want to play by just "whatever feels good to me"; I'd like a sort of "standard", a sort of general preset for every car so as to keep each one's FFB output relatively in-line with eachother.

    I'm going to start a thread in the next few days and see if we can get a sort of repository thread going about how much we should lower each car-with-power-steering's FFB in order to achieve something close to each's true FFB output. I think it could be a very interesting thread and many people (especially those with DD wheels) will probably be really interested if we can get some numbers up. It won't be perfect but that's OK.
     
  18. vittorio

    vittorio Registered

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    Great idea! This puzzled me too for some time now. My CSRE is upgraded with 8.8Nm motors, but 8.8Nm doesn't feel right for some cars e.g. Renault Clio (with nominal max steering torque set to 13Nm in the Clio mod).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2016
  19. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Just in case you aren't aware, the Steering Torque Capability setting only has an effect if it's a higher number than the car's Nominal Max Steering Torque number.
     
  20. vittorio

    vittorio Registered

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    Yes I know, but even 8.8Nm (my wheel is capable to) feels very strong and Nominal Max Steering Torque is set to 13Nm for the Clio. Thats why I wonder is 13Nm correct for the Clio?. Or is it set that high because of not simulated power steering? (I don't know ...)
     

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