NKP and RF2 - why is NKP superior in terms of raw car handling ?

2..things.

1....this sounds more like build 69 rather than b85-90*
2....IMO, rf2 requires proper set ups, moreso than any sim I own.....someone sent me a megane set up, and I immediately did my PB, and it also felt great under brakes, so I still maintain the best is yet to come, ie, once the game is finished and we sort our set ups, we'll have a different view.

*FISI, GTR excluded.

 

Now ya talking, and most of the rf2 cars do this well t5-6 at Malaysia......and given the quality of the braking FFB and FFB in general, I am curious why more people don't accept how good this game is.

 

What FFB wheel are you using ? , Because as i said in most my posts I have a suspisoin that RF2 is greatly affected by this aspect compared to other games.

Also You don't need to use colour full language or get angry / frustrated ( if you are) , I'm just trying to have a conversation about varouse aspects of simulators and that to me NKP seems to handle better than RF 1 and 2.

I also don't doubt that mathematically RF2 is far superior to NKP especially in the sense of use able data , ware and tire temps and what have you , I'm just talking about how the cars move and handle from the drivers perspective with consumer hardware.

 

not sure if you're referring to simracing or real racing - but you clearly ignored my first post where i link you to a forum post I did - i'll link it again - which has links to 2 videos of me driving. You can quite clearly see i have plenty of ability in real life, and can balance a car on the limit, and save a car thats gone over the limit.

http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/2620-Rfactor-2-Beta-A-comprehensive-constructive-review

in terms of simracing, i have secured poles and podiums in the current FSR world trophy - arguably the toughest F1 simracing league out there with the highest level of competition. Im not alien though (those guys run in the World championship) - but i can safely say that in all simgames i easily am on the limit (i'm sure with the absolute best setups i could turn borderline alien times but i find setting up the car and testing incredibly boring). I can turn 1.35's at Sepang in the ISI F1 car, and you have to be on the pace to achieve those kind of times.

So - those are my credentials.

i do know - see above.

You're right - if Person X is a Noob and isn't driving on the limit - then you're right - he isn't really qualified to comment.

However, because of my experience (see above), and credentials - I am qualified. Netkar Pro allows me to do things that I do in real life, when on the limit, which RF2 simply doesnt. Things like:

1. Trail brake with absolute precision (with my fanatec clubsport pedals)
2. Setup the car going into the corner with a neutral balance, and if the back end steps out, able to correct it without losing any momentum or losing much laptime (as I do multiple times in my real-life vids of me driving)
3. Keeping it on an edge, and reacting to any understeer/oversteer moments with ease - nothing to do with the ffb - but because the cars in netkar pro allow for a degree of tyre slip without losing all grip.

Conclusion - Netkar pro is more realistic.

care to quote your sources on any of this? i mean im sure you're right - but how do you know they came up with the best software for the military?
Okay - maybe they were good enough because I guess you have to be, to be chosen by the military. That doesn't necessarily mean that the experience they gained from simulations in the military are relevant to racing car simulations. The dynamics of a racing car and especially at speed are far more complex then say....simulating a tank or something.

Basically, I dont see how their experience in a different industry is relevant to the current simracing games. Also it probably isnt the same group of people as 20-25 years ago, but again i could be wrong - even so - it just doesnt matter anyway.

Its the constant little corrections that Rf2 does NOT let you do, compared to NKPRO. In NKPRO you can saw away at the wheel, correcting all kinds of understeer and oversteer, balancing the car properly with all 3 control inputs.
To turn a good laptime in RF2, you basically have to learn the game - learn the exact braking and turn in points, learn the exact amount of throttle to put on - because the moment you lose adhesion in RF2 you seem to lose all grip completely - it isn't gradual in the slightest. You have to be utterly 100% smooth in RF2 and drive like Jenson Button.
When I drive in RF2 my style of driving completely changes to that of NKPRO, I cannot test the balance of the car continously like i Can in NKPRO because the grip in RF2 is like a switch, On/Off. This is most prevalent in slow corners, and in traction zones.

Even in cars like the Megane Trophy, if you floor it out a corner in 2nd gear, and you have a tiny amount of steering lock on - say - 15 degrees - the car Will spin if you dont lift off and apply opposite lock quickly.
By comparison - in NKPRO with the same scenario - you can keep your foot in, use the steering to counter any oversteer, and keep the momentum.

A great example of this in real life (and you can check it out on youtube) is schumacher in Imola qualifying, where he goes completely off the road onto the grass-crete kerbing at the chicane, is in almost Full opposite lock, but keeps the throttle on. This is frankly impossible to do in Rf2, and pretty much possible in Netkar pro.

It would be nice to see some evidence of your real world experiences, so we can see if you actually do have some sort of ability to balance the car and have good enough reactions and feel to counter oversteer in quick corners - as i demonstrate in my videos.

I can't really comment about your friend - you don't say if hes actually played netkar pro. Again, you ought to give a name really to back up your claims.

well, you say you feel the grip etc.etc....but this is a bit of a contradiction because you admit earlier in your post that

(referring to RF2).

Since FFB is the only feel we have when playing simracing games, and you yourself are saying RF2 is not the best for this (therefore suggesting netkar pro is better, or other simgame) I can only conclude that you're imagining the feeling you're getting in Rf2?

so....if Rf1 doesn't give you the best feelings of FFB, how do you know that you're on the limit of the car, and balancing it on the edge of grip? Again, you're being a bit contradictory here.

The answer, of course, is that the only way you know you're on the limit in RF2 is mainly visual, and then on top of that, learning how much to press the throttle by coming out of each corner. It becomes very much an automated process - pick any car in Rf2, and any track, and any slow corner, and you basically have to press the throttle in 1 very smooth, linear progression, to avoid Any KIND of upsetting the balance of the car.

The moment you upset the balance of the car in RF2, your laptime is dead, because you can't keep the momentum going whilst correcting the slide - in netkar pro, as in real life - you can.

You're going to have to prove this with some video evidence i'm afraid..... otherwise this means nothing to me. I've won the olympics 3 times, did you know - in all the events.

how do you think rally drivers drive? they have to drive almost Entirely off instinct and feel - theres no luxury for them of learning the track.

A lot of the best drivers rely heavily on their instinct. When it comes to the fastest drivers in the world - what separates them is their ability to hold the car, on the edge, lap after lap. That edge constantly changes with tons of variables - tyres, temperature, track grip etc... and they continously adjust to it. They have to rely heavily on instinct and feel to do this.

again, another contradictory statement - you again acknowledge that Netkar gives better feel..........its this feel that allows you to drive on the edge in Netkar. This feel is not in RF2 to the same degree.

 

rf2=beta

 

It's difficult to discuss about RF1 physics (thousand of different mods / tracks including very bad ones) and RF2 physics (beta stage). I had all kind of sensations thourghout my RF1 experience, since amazing driving feel to some very poor ones, even with "acclaimed" modders content.

So, if you intending to discuss NKP's physics focusing Rfactor physics, you should clarify which RF mods and tracks are you refeering to. They're so different from one another that's is hard to consider the same simulator.

 

I don't think you know very much about tank simulation.

I keep seeing people say this and I just don't experience it. Even the twitchiest cars in the current build can wiggle and wobble all over the place, and you can recover from pretty big slides regularly. People constantly make small adjustments and 'saw' at the wheel during turns.

You're probably not discussing them here, but would you really say that once you lose grip in the '60s cars, you've lost it completely? They remind me of the F1600 and 2000 cars from NkP in that you can drive like a total maniac and still recover, and you can also feel the limit of grip very clearly and (well, better drivers than me can) ride it in a very convincing way.

 

yup, I actually think most people do accept how good it is, just not everybody, but thats understandable and is like that with all sims/games.

Was referring to real racing, saw your post when you first wrote it months back and again a couple days ago

honestly hiohaa im not going to go throught every single thing you wrote and spend another hour writing a post. You keep saying im contradicting myself, some of the things I was saying regarding ffb comparisons and such were in general terms and not necissarilly my point of view. The real life stuff and how its hard to believe me without evidence thats fine I honestly dont care and have nothing to prove. I won a $25000 scholarship for winning a lower championship, with that sponsorship (and other very very small sponsor help) I headed for a 2nd season in a slightly faster series where I was leading the championship most of the season until the last 2 races where it rained. I wasnt that experienced in the rain and didnt do too well in the last 2 races and so thats where I lost the championship dropping me to 3rd. Ending 3rd in the championship was almost like finishing last in terms of money, sponsorship money etc.

I raced and did tests alongside "real" drivers who went on to star mazda, indy lights, and atlantics. 2 or 3 (cant remember) of the 4 I raced against were actual race winners in star mazda. Not sure what happened to their careers after but they were always front runners or near front runners in every series they were in, they were "real" drivers, not guys languishing 1.5, 2, 3, 4 seconds a lap off the pace. The 2 day test I had in Italy went very well, there were issues with my racing license and without doing some other stuff I could not progress further (technically I wasnt even supposed to do that 2 day test either). Without money I couldnt do anything, hence racing career to an end.

FOR NOW

Like I said im a fan of the nk pro guys because I think they have the same mindset as ISI, hardcore no compromise (hopefully at all in any way shape or form). Just for some reason, maybe I have a weird driving style or a weird feel or something I dont know, but for some reason I cant drive properly and more importantly consistently in nk pro like I can in rF or any other sim (ircaing, lfs etc etc).

I used a "Momo Racing" (cheap black one) for years, than moved to a G25 for 2 or 3 years, then for certain reasons (mainly one) I left the G25 so I moved to a DFGT. It wasnt bad, I sold it. Now im using the old "Momo Force" (metal red expensive belt driven one) with G25 pedals (bought but dont use the Nixim pedal mod, didnt like it at all, in terms of everything, feel, consistency and laptime).

Either tomorrow or wednesday im FINALLY getting an actual cockpit (track dreams) and triple screens, 2 small vibration units (aka cheap smaller buttkickers), Fanatec CSR wheel and Elite pedals. So ill retry NKpro for like the 6th time since im getting a new wheel.

 

http://bit.ly/L5yffd
Should give a basic idea on the dev process. And also how we use that data, or plug gaps in data.

If you want to discuss that page, it would be best to do it in it's own topic though, so feel free to do that.

 

Well there is the navigator. If you and your navigator are on the same page then it's a huge help. Not quite like learning the track, but almost.

And for the record, many rallies are held on the same stages year after year, so many drivers do in fact know at least parts of the track beforehand.

 

you really dont know much about rallying then.
Yes they have a co driver. THe co driver isn't giving them detailed description of the corner, the bumps, the exact cambers.....the co driver gives a very general idea of the kind of speed of corner it is. The rally driver is still very much using visual queues - this is obvious.
IF you watch any onboard footage, rally drivers are not pushing to a 100%, if they did, they would crash sooner or later.
Why are they not pushing at a 100%? Because the co driver cannot give them a detailed description of each corner. They have to feel their way through a stage, the entire time.

And yes, some stages they do re-use. Theres a difference though between 'i've been there before' and knowing every inch of a track.....they wouldnt have memorised the hundreds of corners - they might recognise some parts of a single stage - thats about it. And thats only some stages of a 3 day rally.

Think it through.

And so this leads me back to my original conclusion - it forces them to drive entirely through the feel in the steering and in their body, and instinctively react to anything in the road surface. If they didn't, they'd eventually go off the road.

And spinelli - .....again.....videos of you driving? any proof? you completely ignored what i said in my post.
You say you don't care - but i'm afraid, you're the one that took the conversation in this direction. You arrogantly didn't think any of us knew what it was like to drive a car on the limit - only expert you.

Personally i dont think you need to have experienced anything in real life - using a bit of common sense from onboard footage, you can see what cars are like to drive, and how they react to being driven, when they are being driven on the limit (as they are in all proffessional motorsports). What is important is how these cars react when driven Over the limit - and the cars in NKPRO react much more realistically, especially in oversteer, compared to RF2.

Also - im still sticking to my rationale that racing cars are more difficult to simulate to a high level than a tank. You're right, I dont know anything about tanks - i'm basing this on some common sense - feel free to point out why i'm wrong, and if your argument is good then i'll accept it.

 

They actually do a recce of each stage before they drive it and discuss each corner with the co-driver, twice in fact. That's where pace notes come from Mr. expert.

 

I think you and who ever brought up rally drivers knowing the track are missing the point to some extent.

The example of a rally driver on a tarmac stage is a good example to highlight the important of feel and car stability when a loss of grip occurs. Allot of world class drivers drive from feel and not from memorising each turns exact braking , corner angle and acceleration point. ( yet RF1 and 2 with prity much every single gripy car force you to learn it)

The reason why its a good example to counter the "all drivers learn a track and that's how it should be in a sim" is that even with a co driver and even if the driver did a brief walk through they have by no means learned the corners perfectly and yet they don't crash on every second corner and they still drive very fast often losing grip and sliding but still remaining very much in control.

When driving they are feeling the car around the course and making small adjustments to what they feel as the car grip fluctuates .

World class rally drivers

When world clas rally drivers are pushing especially on the tarmac section's they often make mistakes that lead to loses of grip and instability but the point is this loss of stability and slides are very controllable and the car is very keen to grip back in the top rally drivers thrive on this and use the way cars want to bite back in to take corners faster , say there is a fast left and right on a tarmac stage and the road is very narrow the very top drivers slide the car so the car almost side steps through the corner you cannot do this in RF1 or RF2 with gripy cars.

Track car grip

Now obviously Rally cars are set up different from a track car but for example track cars offer a similar sort of grip and give. ( by that I don't mean they are exactly the same I just mean many of the aspects of feel and stability carry across from tarmac rally stages to say driving a gripy track car )

This Grip and give allows for a track driver to make an error over drive the car and allows for the driver to experimental far more with each corner before they get to the point of losing the car.

Ability to Over drive cars

Another good example ! ( if i might say so ) Why do you think that one of the problems new real world drivers have that have good basic car control is that that they overdrive the car ?

Its actually very hard to overdrive the car in RF2 and RF1 in the sense that if you are over driving it you are probably going off the track or ending in a spin. In real life however its VERY common for people to overdrive controlling the car and keeping it on the track and then wonder why there lap was awful. NKP allows for people to lose time by over driving the car just as they would in the real world. this stability and ability to overdrive also allows for people to recover from a minor error when overtaking or when pushing the car to the limit and this filters all the way up to the point where a driver is on the limit trying to maintain grip at any given corner angle they take trying not to overdrive the car and waste energy.

General Grip of real cars and how that affects racing


If real world cars behaved like the faster and generally more grippy cars in RF1 and RF2 there would be FAR more accidents and crashes in races or even simple track days. RF1 and RF2 Do however teach a driver how to be more smooth so it is arguably an excellent training tool, but on the other side because you don't have the give of real cars it makes people drive in a very tense and probably overly conservative way.

from the perspective of a "game" or something we are doing for fun this can also make RF1 and RF2 ( with grippy cars) less fun ,less intuitive , curse more crashes and produce worse quality side by side racing due to the twitchy nature of the cars when on the limit and the lack of control and willingness for cars to grip back in when over driving them.

I would also argue that from the perspective of realism and emulating the real world experience of what it is to drive a car the lack of this "give" in rf1 and 2 is also a detriment.

Why do you think hill climb and rally stages are awful in RF1 ?

I cannot think of a single car in RF1 and RF2 that does not suffer from this lack of grip and stability the only exception are cars that are by there nature not gripy and tend to always be in some kind of pronounced slide the 1960s cars for example.

Disclaimer !

I KNOW RF2 IS STILL IN BETA , PERSONALLY I STILL ENJOY RF1 AND RF2 AND I AM NOT UNDERMINING THE WORK ISI HAVE DONE !! ( lol if I was to try and code a physics engine the best we would end up with is pong I could not even get my head around multiple bodies imparting forces to each other in 2d )

I AM ALSO NOT SAYING THE CARS IN RF 1 and 2 ARE IMPOSABLE TO DRIVE !! I'm simply saying when it comes to correcting them and when they lose grip they are far more unstable than real cars or the cars in NKP and the point at which they do get to a point of no return is allot sooner.

And I still think its an interesting conversation hence the long posts I tried to format it to make it more readable again sorry for the spelling and grammar dyslexics should be banned from forums when in a rush.

 

To be honest, I catch most slides in rF2... I'm wondering if there is a deeper problem (such as framerate or the wheel latency) for those who can't... Is this something you feel with all cars, James?

 

I run at 60-120FPS using a g25 on a 42" tv (That I use for playing CS and other games / simulators to a high standard , just to put to doubt latency issues associated with tv's)

You can still catch the cars in RF2 and RF2 is worlds better than Rf1 with grippy cars.

I will try my best in words to describe situations that hi-light what I would call holes in RF2's otherwise fantastic simulation.


1) with grippy cars say you get into an oscillation with the car ( tank slapper) the tires are more reluctant to grip in than I would expect from reality or than what happens in NKP ( granted you should not be getting into tank slapper but the fact you cannot recover them as readily as real life or NKP I think is indicative of issues with the tire model)

2) With the FISI and other grippy cars in RF2 If you are pulling out of a corner and the rear wheels spin up almost always you have to totally back off . In comparison in NKP you can power through it , even if this is a detriment to your lap time the point is it wont result in a spin if you are good with your steering In NKP I find that you can also back off a small amount allowing the wheels to put the power into the road and not into the spin , Again I think this comes back to tires more willing to grip in when going from one state to another

3) With most grippy cars in RF2 and RF1 when it gets into a slide you feel locked into a almost pre determined , Very narrow , very hard to manage in terms of car position slide.

The point at which it changes from very much griped in to going into a slide is near or close to a binary switch , In nkp with all the cars it is a very linear transition from griped in to slide to losing control of the car.

4) As an interesting side point , when I do crash / run out of track in NKP it mirrors what I see in videos of real life in that Its more a case of running out of track than doing 360 spins or losing total car control.


For me my issues with RF1 and 2 at this point in time Is just a real lack of subtle depth when it comes to the specific aspect of tires going from grip to no grip. However RF2 excels in how cars handle when the tires have grip or near full grip ( I appreciate tires never really have "full grip" when in a state of movement and that my comments are a gross over simplification of the situation without graphs and data i cannot describe the situation without using rather vague and simplistic language ) .

If RF2 got this aspect close or similar to that of real life or even NKP I don't think I would ever leave my pc , as I said RF2 excels in other aspects of racing , tire temps care ware , track changes , weather , content , Track texture , FFB, and raw car handling when tires are gripped in.

This issue ( or maybe my perceived issue) with RF2 and the way the tires grip is separate from the FFB , Granted FFB goes a long way to describe what the car is doing and helps develop a haptic memory on-top of the visual and spacial memory developed when driving.

But for example I can turn the FFB off in RF2 and NKP and perceive the same issues in how the tires lose and gain grip

What I believe the solution to be

I know ISI is a small developer and will likely be stretched for time but hypothetically If I were working at ISI as a designer/consultant I would ask for a preliminary test in seeing if there was a way to increase the liniarty of when the tires gain and lose grip as that is where I would place my bet on where the difference is.

Obviously I have no clue on how your engine is developed and how abstract / how many layers of math/processing your data goes through before you get to the output tire model ( I can only begin to imagine from the information you have made public) and as to how complex or simple it is to test artificially increasing the granulation/steps and Linearity of tire grip loss and recovery.

Another disclaimer !

Its also not my place to tell ISI as a developer what to do , its there company there money and there risk , I don't know the companies mandate overall goals and priorities.

I hope ISI are not offended by my comments or see me as attacking there hard work. What I say is from the perspective of someone who is passionate about simulation , haptic devices , RF1 , RF2 , and virtual reality.

I also have a deep respect for the artistry in the programming , modelling and the quality of simulation ISI have produced over the years.

 

Slightly OT, but someone mentioned that planes are far easier to simulate to a high standard than cars. Being an aero eng myself I can say that that is definitely not the case. The world of aircraft is much more complex than you can imagine (trying doing an undergrad dynamics subject!) since you're dealing with 6DOF, not to mention structural loads, aero loads, engine (prop or jet), control surfaces, aeroelasticity, avionics, materials, environmental effects (wind, altitude, temps etc), need I go on...lol

 

Excellent Tim, really appreciate that! I'm sure I will in due course.

 

At the risk of going further of topic... a race car is basically an aeroplane that generates negative lift and is stopped from hitting the ground by suspension and tyres, isn't it?

I'd say a vehicle simulation is all those things you mention plus the added complexity of tyre & suspension modelling.

 

My two cents. I have recently purchased netkar pro as I was having many re-activation issues with rf1 and there are no front wheel drive cars in rf2 and i just bought a front wheel drive car so wanted to practice techniques such as left foot braking and other front wheel drive racing techniques on a sim and also for fun.

Anyway I have to say I am absolutely blown away with the front wheel drive physics of the abarth in netkar pro. And the vintage car is simply amazing also. I don't know how to explain it but it just feels like there is so much going on with the cars. The word "deep" comes to mind, especially with the vintage. It seems that there are so many variables and it feels like there is so much to explore with how to car reacts to different situations and the weight shift of the car is just so convincing. The other cars seem great too but haven't spent much time with them. The tracks, graphics and frame rates are also divine.

For immersion and feel the rf2 rtrainer mod is the only mod that feels convincing to me and indeed it is outstanding. Hoping for more like that and front-wheel drive too...

 

Yes I agree

When I brought it up I was obviously talking about from a practical end user real time simulation perspective on consumer hardware not a professional technical avionics and usable data perspective.

But I'd rather stay on topic of the OP.