NKP and RF2 - why is NKP superior in terms of raw car handling ?

This is the thing and like you feel that each sim having their own characteristics is a good thing. You don't want them all to feel the same but the good top of the line sims will always have a similar feel because they are produced the right way. Of course they will all behave slightly different but the majority of it will feel similiar.

NKP for me was the shining sim of the last generation without a doubt. rF1 had some really stellar mods that felt great when created properly and made proper use of Real Feel. But alot were decent but required alot of messing around. NKP every time i fired it up just felt so ahead at the time in terms of tactile feel and precision. The F1800 the first time i drove it, it just dazzled me, it was just ahead of any other sim car i had ever driven and that is coming from someone that does not like open wheelers apart from historic F1's etc. But that car was so good, just amazed me and just felt so immersed and at one with it.

But the Brabham i think is another level in rF2 in comparison. Maybe not a fair comparison but still in terms of tactile feel and precision for me it is the best sim car i have driven. The way the rear can be i enticed out with some off throttle and throwing it in and then feeling the point to put the gas down again is better than anything i did in NKP. I raced NKP in a league btw and was pretty fast, so pushed the sim right to the limits but it just doesn't grab me now like rF2.

 

Yah I definitely like the old cars in RF2 , I cannot fault ISI for there implementation even in the beta they stand out and act as a massive USP for RF2.

Also Its a very good move by ISI as I think allot of people are tired of GPL's limitations and it will help RF2 be relivent even if AC , GTR x and Pcars end up as very solid games as they will likely focus on modern cars.

At the same time I don't think the old cars require that strong of a simulation for them to feel good , In the same way RBR on the dirt , skip barber , trainer cars , GPL cars all tend to feel really good regardless of each simulator .

NKP and FVA is the only game where the cars from the old heavy tin tops all the way to the F1 cars are very solid and arguably of the highest level of any sim with basic consumer equipment.

I have a feeling that RF2 likely capitalises far more on wheels like the CSW and T500 than other sims.

I drive with a crappy G25 at the moment and although for the price its bloody good its to much of a toy and nothing like a real car wheel with all its issues + the default peddles lol , mind you I started with a second hand momo so I'm not complaining.

 

Fva has so many exploits to make you go faster, weird snap rotation from turn in to apex, using a CRAP load of lock, feeling aways way too planted, I could keep going, but the core motor of netkar pro has great physics and very direct ffb and the car is very controllable while not feeling arcadeish. That to the masses makes everyone think its the god of sims. I laugh how people get blinded by great ffb to gauge the vehicle dynamics of a simulator. Just like how people hate on a mod for rf1 but then when they use it with real feel they praise it.

 

Surely you're not going to give an argument for either side based on one car, are you?

Every car is different, even if it comes from the same design and is produced by the same people.

None of you are correct when you say: 'this car drives like this', even if you have direct experience. that one car you drove, in those exact conditions, on those exact tires, drove that way - and probably only for you, it might have been different for the guy 5lbs heavier.

You can simulate the cars you model, you can do physics simulations to work out the tendencies of the car based on the information you're given, but that does not allow you to say with any certainty how a simulation of a car should feel, because they are still, in 2012, all going to feel different in real life. So saying a simulator is better or worse when comparing to even your own experiences, doesn't mean that worse simulation for you isn't better for everyone else's experience.

We build cars most if the time with models from the designer, and we use the car manuals manufacturers give teams to understand those cars, but like the teams it takes us running simulations (on in-house software) to see what effect all that data has. But it's still one car being simulated, it might not be the one with the repair from a crash that makes the car handle better... See what I mean? The same driver can have two TOTALLY different experiences in the same car just by changing tires, if you use only one set as an example, you could end up with two very different cars, so that's why we don't build cars that way. We try to take multiple sets of data, while your opinions ate likely based on one: your experience.

All simulations are trying to do their best to simulate real life, but there are way too many elements to allow you guys to really have a realistic discussion on this. It really has to come down to what YOU like, which might not be what anyone else does.

 

Often here drivers in interviews after races saying how different the car felt from warm up just because of a small change in temperature .

 

Eeeeexactly.

 

One of the most important things to me in a sim is that it eventually comes to me, ie, I can eventually figure out how to drive it fast due to it's technical merits, but that wasn't the case with the F3.5 pre-b85, and that's why I suspect many people disliked the car, in fact, pcars{the wannabe sim} used the F3.5 as an example of a bad sim car, and I certainly agreed at the time, but now it seems pretty decent and could be one of the more popular cars if the sounds weren't so ordinary.

There are two 88 mac mods for rf2, the first one was a bit of a gripfest, it'd make for great racing as it was so grippy, but people might get bored of it, the 2nd one, the Senna 88 is a very good sim car IMO, mainly because you're forced to drive well to either go fast or keep it on track, and you learn where it's tricky and drive around it, primarily accelerating in the lower gears....it also has brake destruction, so you won't be able to thrash it under brakes either.

As for NKP, some of those cars seem rather convincing to me, and it's another sim that has great controllabilty, not something I can say about some of iracings cars.

 

If Tim believes this, I don't think he really gets what the OP is on about then.
the OP's point is about raw handling. Every car has 4 tyres, a chassis, an engine and brakes.
There are inherent characteristics in all cars, similar to all cars.
All cars have grip from rubber tyres, and physics determined by the natural laws of the universe.

The inherent handling characteristics and driveability you get in NKP is definitively better for the reasons mentioned. 'Better' in an objective sense. Objective because you can compare it to 1. Real world experience. 2. What you see on Tv.

These 2 methods are the only things you have to make an objective assessment of which game is more realistic.
In all cars, racing, rally, whatever, all have slip angles within the limits of the tyres which allow for a degree of slip and movement.
NKP at the moment displays these characteristics better than RF2.

When it comes to driving anything fast, no matter what the car, or condition, or tyre, or weight of the driver, the same techniques of how to drive fast all apply, and they are all the same.

I only showed me driving on my youtube video to prove how driveable race cars actually are on and over the limit, to try and dispel this myth that racing cars are so difficult to drive. In the right hands, and with the right skill level, it is easy to do.

When Ive done track days in the past, one of the things I've noticed with the other people who have paid a ton of money to drive like me - all turn up in their porsches and ferraris, but are absolutely useless at the circuit. They are utterly overwhelmed by the raw sensations, and the responsiveness of a race car compared to a road car. This is why a lot of these people end up with a perception that driving a racing car is tough and don't get anywhere Near the limit properly. They either are incredibly slow, or totally overestimate what the car will do, and spin straight off, get scared, and pootle around after that.

It wouldnt surprise me if this is similar to simracing - there is a massive range of skill level when i enter the RF2 servers, and most people are frankly pretty useless. THere's maybe only 2 or 3 drivers at any 1 time in a given server, who can drive at an okay pace, and can do it consistently.

All of this adds to this perception that its 'hard'. Which is weird, because the beauty of simracing is it lets you find the limits of a car easily without any fear of dieing. People continue to struggle with RF2 however, because its unnecessarily hard, and unrealistically so.

NKP, like RBR, allows you to 'dance' with the car, you can really play around with the car on entry and exit, and it allows you to do things like :

1. floor the throttle coming out a corner, completely, without simply spinning, and generally just have fun throwing the car about and over driving it.
2. allows you to really play with the weight transfer especially under braking. Trail braking is an absolute doddle.
3. if you go into a corner too hot, you can keep the momentum and balance the car, fighting the oversteer, and exit the corner. Compare that to RF2, where if you go in too hot, the car does this weird 4 way drift under braking, with absolutely no control over it. This characteristic has been carried over from RF1.
I can replicate in NKP in the Osella car, all the things I did on that track day in that prototype car, in my youtube video.

(and by the way, I personally don't find RF2 hard, i'm a borderline alien simracing driver)

i think i'll probably make a part 2 sequel to my infamous 'RF2 beta, a comprehensive constructive review' http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/2620-Rfactor-2-Beta-A-comprehensive-constructive-review which received awards for its breadth of analysis.

What i plan to do is setup a camera showing me driving with my G25 both RF2 and NKP, and show how differently you have to drive each game to achieve laptime.
I also want to tackle things like the multiplayer interface and mod installation, which is, frankly, a mess. But thats not what this thread is about so.

Just to ram home this point about driveability and slip angles. I recently rejoined iracing (i felt sick afterwards) - i was curious to know what the new tyre model had done to the cars. It had made all of them far easier to drive, and much much less nervous on the limit. IIRC, a video interview with Dave Kaemmer talking about the new tyre model - its worth watching.

im capable of doing 1.35's at Sepang in the F1 car. Almost all of that is entirely through learning the game, rather than driving off the ffb and being instinctive. In NKP its almost the complete opposite - just like RBR you can drive almost entirely off the FFB without having to learn any specific game characteristics.

I am going to leave open the possibility that my G25 simply isn't quick enough to cope with the transition effects of the weight in the FFB, of the RF2 F1 car. I have been told on good authority that the CSR elite or CSR clubsport wheel is much quicker and stronger, and so it could be the case that my G25 is doing RF2 an injustice.

I really don't understand Tim's response, in terms of how it relates to the OP at all. You can make cars handle completely differently, even the same car - we know this from simply changing setup in simracing games can have a dramatic effect. Setups can make a car 4 seconds quicker from the default. The important point is this - it will still be behaving under the same laws of physics. It will understeer, it will oversteer, it'll sometimes be in balance, sometimes all 4 wheels will be pushing out. We are talking here about What a real car is actually capable of, versus what the cars in RF2 end up doing.


ANd yes, I know, RF2 is still in Beta. So anything is still possible.

 

Maybe the steering feels more instinctive in nkpro, doesnt mean whats happening underneath is more realistic, ive seen way to many times where things just seem a little too stable almost a little dull. Dont judge a vehicle dynamics simulator just because you can feel the car and correct better, doesnt work that way

 

2012 Canadian Grand Prix 2 weeks ago.

Team McLaren-Mercedes:
Lewis Hamilton won the race convincingly.
Jenson Button was seconds a lap slower and finished out of the points. Jenson didn't have a problem with the car at all.

Case in point, you should thank McLaren for giving you a real life example of your point! lol

 

The problem is as mentioned many a time above is that the 'feeling' of how a car should handle is completely subjective, whether in sims or reality. There are an infinite number of variables which will change what we all feel and even if you had exactly the same conditions the person's own perceptions would be different anyway.

The classic case of 10 people witnessing a road-car crash, you'll get 10 different stories. Some will be similar, some will be way off, yet none will be the same. They did an interesting psychology experiment where a road crash was shown, simple as can be, a red car crashes into a blue car. Purely dependant on how the question was asked, resulted in different answers being given. When asked the number of subjects ''What speed did the red car tap the blue car?'' the answer was nearly always a very slow speed. When asked ''What speed did the red car smash into the blue car?'' the answer was nearly always a lot higher, we're talking nearly twice the difference!

Enough psychology.


I'd like to reiterate my point from earlier because I think it's the only one that is NOT subjective. And that is, if you enter REAL world numbers into your physics calculator and the output is strange/odd behaviour then the physics model is not accurate. If you need FUDGE FACTORS to get the right response then again there is something wrong with your algorithm.
This is the only way to determine how accurate the simulation is. Doing it based on 'feel' will not be an accurate answer.

 

Even with the FFB off how the cars in net-car pro move is closer to reality than that of Rf1 and RF2.

Granted There are some exploits in NKP which somone pointed out , But exploits also exist in RF1 , 2 and i racing.


I agree and said in other comments it looks like ISI are trying to more accurately simulate reality and have far more complex math but maybe we are just not there with consumer computers to do that yet.

I agree with allot of what you are saying but its a fact that all real world cars are under the same laws of physics Granted all the tiny factors make them all handle different and they are ever changing but in the end cars drive like cars evan when you change the factors.

A good demonstration is how that top end real world F1 drivers can go into nascar or drive many different cars and do very well or for example you could put a top end driver in any car and they can within a few laps or a couple of hours be very close to getting a solid competitive lap time with it.

Would you not agree that In many ways Real world driving is far more intuitive than RF2 ? and that that would also apply outside of the raw G forces and feel of the car but also that real world cars are more stable than simulated cars ?



Again I know people tend to get quite heated with these sorts of discussion's I just find it an interesting conversation and by talking about things and offering counter points I can better develop my understanding.

Its a shame that more people in general don't appreciate how amazing simulators are , even with the limitations and issues , Its amazing how close we can actually come to representing some aspects of reality with math , silicone , electricity and a washing machine motor.

Maybe that should be ISI's new tag line .... " making it happen with Math , silicone and a washing machine motor since 2005"

Finally I really enjoy subjecting you all to my dyslexia and "," abuse

 

NKP MP is dead, and it'll still be dead in 6months, but rf2 will be kicking into gear about then.

 

This is true but then AC will be out some time this or next year , I plan to be playing both RF2 and AC but for different reasons.

 

'Jenson didn't have a problem with the car at all' .
.............yes he did. He couldn't get temperature into his front tyres at all. He also lost tons of running throughout FP1 and 2 because of some gearbox issue or hydraulic issue, so he did No running in FP1. HE therefore had no data on setup going into qualifying.
On top of that, Mclaren have had to significantly change their car since China due to a rule change on the tolerance of the flexibility of the floor - (source - f1technical.net forum + Mark Hughes article on sky f1 website) which has affected jenson more than lewis.

So yes...he had plenty of problems with his mclaren which is why he was miles off the pace. I'm not denying that the same car can have different handling characteristics..... the OP's point has got nothing to do with this anyway, as i've tried to make clear in my post.

i think people have really misunderstood the thrust of this thread. I am not talking about feelings or ability, but how NKPRO is different to RF2 in the way the car behaves on the limit, and that the characteristic of the way NKPRO does this seems much more like real life, looking at 1. tv footage 2. real life experience.

 

The feeling is subjective, correct. The way a car handles isn't, its objective. Its based on physics you can't change because they are embedded on planet earth.
Hence why we have these simulation games which try and emulate what a car does in real life. Hence why you can then have discussions about what simulation is more realistic.

Why is RF2/NKPRO/iracing more realistic than forza or gran turismo? (I assume you think it is, if so, why?)

 

Consumer sims must work well on consumer gear...as for the pro software, there's an assumption that the buyer will have extremely expensive/sensitive equipment.
To me, the major difference in rf2 over every other sim is FFB, particularly under brakes, and it's not just weight, it's feel regarding what the tyres are doing, so in the best rf2 cars, I feel like I'm driving the car and have plenty of control by virtue of the relationship between the physics, FFB and the wheel.

This doesn't automatically make any other sim bad, it just means that rf2 has better more communicative FFB.
I plan to drive the upcoming GSC camaro till my fingers bleed, but I doubt it'll outdo rf2 on FFB translating into useable feel.

 

No true sim player will be without this game

 

I wasn't impressed with nkpro, it had some very good qualities but I couldn't drive intuiivley like I can in rfactor, rf2, lfs (which I'm not a fan of by the way), and iracing, I can't feel threshold brake lock up I can't feel the car “underneath me“ the steering is VERY natural feeling, prob the most natural of all sims, but I for example can't feel the nose dive just that tiny tiny bit less because I increased the front damper bump by a single tick, I can't feel all the tiny sublities that make my brain think “I'm in a car“, I was constantly locking brakes , spinning, understeering and I don't do that much in any sim, regardless of physics engine, and I certainly didn't do that much in my real life experience, and I wasn't slow trust me