new tires for old cars

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by rd.king, Oct 6, 2019.

  1. rd.king

    rd.king Registered

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    Is it possible to update the tires for ISI C6 Corvette and other cars.
    I really like to run the Vette around the Nords but the old tires are crap.
    Are these cars going to see an update in the future.
     
  2. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    i don't think so.. I think I remember seeing Marrs saying that they may consider letting modders update the old ISI content, but im sure with that comes license issues.

    So basically no.
     
  3. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Let's see if we can't make use of that RD interview that was done...

    RD: On the topic of content - recently releases such as the GT3/GTE cars and the various circuits have been of a very high standard. However, the quality of some older content is perhaps not quite at the same level. Will you be revisiting the older content soon, and can you share how you plan to update the older cars and tracks within the title?

    MO: Let me split that question in half, and let’s look at the tracks first. Licensing wise we decided not to do any tracks without a proper license, meaning that those tracks we inherited from ISI that represent real tracks will not get updated anymore. Then there are the 3PA tracks, for which the sources of these tracks are still with “third parties” which means we can’t easily get those updated anymore. Most are part of the “unlicensed” group anyway. So I would say for tracks, if we did not update them already, we’re probably not going to anymore. Then let’s look at cars. In some ways the situation is similar there, in terms of 3PA and unlicensed ones, except that I believe we did update quite a lot of those already for DX11 and the new rain effects. That said, some have really old and low polygon models, so if we really want to upgrade them, it would mean redoing them from scratch. That, unfortunately, does not always make business sense. Now for cars I guess you are also referring to updating physics and/or tyres. That is something we will look at on a case by case basis for the cars we’ve upgraded to DX11. We might still upgrade some of them, but it also depends on if we get more data so we actually have something we can improve on.

    RD: (question from @GPL) - Is all content, ISI/3PA/S397-absorbed that has not been updated or fixed by now, going to be left as-is? Be it visual, DX11 compatibility or technical updates since their original release spanning from the Historic Formula cars to modern material such as F-Renault 3.5 2014, Honda Civic BTCC, or even circuits like Mountain Peak or others?

    MO: When we took over, we made a few changes to how we approached content development. We decided to no longer make content without proper licenses unless it was clearly fictional, and for that reason we also changed the 3PA approach, which typically did exactly that. Now with the development of our brand new DX11 engine, we migrated a lot of the original content, and everything we migrated can be found under “Studio 397” in the workshop. For the reasons mentioned above, and a few others, such as having access to the actual sources, licenses almost expiring or in some cases deciding that the content was so old it would have to be completely redone from scratch anyway, we decided not to migrate everything. What is still untouched can be found in the “ISI” workshop still. That said, there are a few things in there that we are still considering upgrading, so I won’t go on record stating that everything in there will remain as is.

    RD: (question from @Patrik Marek) – Regarding updating older content, any chance of getting help form modders ? - in a sense, would this even be allowed for licensed content or would you have to go through re-approval and what not.

    MO: If modders are interested in helping us by taking some of the older content that they would like to see improved and doing work on it, we will certainly try to work with you to make that happen. Get in touch with me and we can discuss this. In terms of what is allowed and when we would have to go through approval, there is no generic answer to that, it depends on the changes and the license conditions, which are different for almost every license. But we are certainly open to this.



    @rd.king I guess the other thing to consider, is what exactly is 'crap' about the Corvette tyres?
     
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  4. rd.king

    rd.king Registered

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    i
    drive the car you'll get it.
    IRL that car will pull a G on a skid pad.
    In the game on the Nords it will spin 360 at 50 klmh.
    Maybe it's the tires maybe it's the physics.

    As for the interview that's as clear as mud.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
  5. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Well, a game that does its best with physics and whose tyre model (even the first one) was streets ahead of everyone else, and is probably still on a par now, I think deserves better feedback than "the tyres are crap" or "drive the car you'll get it".

    Having said that, maybe I will try it since I think I only briefly tried it at the time. And I'm sure I'll be able to drive it at 50kph without spinning - as you probably can too - though not at Nords since I haven't bought it. The question is whether when it spins, it should have. Could it also be related to setup?
     
  6. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Do you mean the C6 street car? I just did 3 laps at Mid Ohio, second timed lap wasn't totally clean but 1:41 on a default set and pulled 1.1g in T1. Bit sideways but didn't lose it.

    *oops, second timed lap. Only did 2.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
  7. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Been some time since drove one or NSX. As I remember in my opinion these tires had really low static friction and were driven majorly sideways, which means sliding all the time. It didn't feel right. Same goes for few more isi cars. Such as spark or Houston g4. Sometimes it is wrong impression, due to wrong expectations and lack of seat time. But also any car that is driven by majorly sliding it, is not realistic Imo.
     
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  8. rd.king

    rd.king Registered

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    Yes C6 street car
    mid Ohio as in V-LM, if so, not exactly up to date is it.
    I mean in comparison to the surface physics of the new Nords.
    but whatever I stand by my tires are "crap" statement.
    It was NOT meant as feed back, just an opinion in general discussion.
    New surface tech needs new tire tech, or at lease updated tire tech.
     
  9. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I'm not sure what's changed in track tech that needs new tyres - a surface is a surface.

    You are requesting a tyre update to fix the crap tyres, which is more than just an opinion about how the car handles. You even said you aren't sure if it's tyres or the car physics, so I'm not sure why you're focusing on tyre 'tech'. (Just the other day someone posted about using these and the NSX tyres for their mods, and called them good tyres. These aren't rF1 tyres.)

    Since I'm not ready to buy Nords yet, maybe I'll try Silverstone or Sebring. Anything I should be looking for, apart from 1g lat force?
     
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  10. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    Old tyres were crap hence why we've seen dozens of improvements to the tyre model. .. otherwise all of the cars would of been on the crap tyres. All the old cars have zero to none sat and awful low speed friction and awful drop off at max slip angles.. and all the things wrong s397 went and fixed.. But been saying that for years.

    . S397 cars feel miles more lifelike shame we couldn't experience it on the older stuff though.
     
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  11. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @LokiD and this is where constructive discussion based on actual facts goes out the window. There absolutely hasn't been dozens of improvements to the tyre model, something anyone following the build updates and physics blogs would know.

    If the tyres were so bad to begin with we wouldn't have been playing rF2 at all from 2012. Yes, the model has improved, but it's the same fundamental system.

    I'm asking for specifics on what's wrong with the tyres. Maybe it's of no consequence, but someone started a thread about crap tyres so why not?
     
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  12. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    So, just confirmed to myself that I'm really bad at Sebring (did a couple of races there in rF1 10+ years ago, and did maybe 10-15 laps in the hotlap competition on here a couple of months back - ended up 6-7s off the pace then I think), couple of flying laps only got me just under a 2:28.

    Still hitting 1g in the corners (at speeds of 85-190kph), and barely got sideways at all. Caught a few moments here and there, either under braking or under power, but nothing that screamed undriveable.

    In isolation I'd believe if the tyres aren't quite as planted as they should be, but I couldn't drive it and state that something's obviously wrong. It's not a car with masses of grip, and something like 430+HP, so it requires some caution.

    In comparison to other cars, it very much depends on the car. I've been spending a lot of time in old slower cars, without a lot of cornering grip and needing some attention to keep straight. If I went the other way, either from a modern F1 or one of the GT3 DLC it would probably take me 20 mins just to keep the corvette on the track. Its brakes are pretty weak too, so very easy to enter too fast which will immediately have the back end catching up with the front.

    Honestly I'd be very surprised if you couldn't keep the car on the track and even start pushing it to its limits without too much trouble - it's quite driveable, bit of push on default setup at times so not out of control. I imagine Nords will be a little tricky on the hills since it's not a race car (probably heavy on weight transfer, will need care), but if you take a good 30-60 mins to actually adapt to it (instead of just driving it like something else) you'll probably enjoy it.
     
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  13. DrivingFast

    DrivingFast Registered

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    I think what they mean is that as there are no (yet) S397 road cars that we could consider very realistic with all the latest physics technologies, if one or several road cars are made soon, it is essential (for me) that all the latest technologies of physics and tires are here, and it would be highly desirable that the car be made on real data.

    The NSX no longer meets the criteria that can be set in 2019, especially in terms of tires (IMO).
     
  14. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    A perfect time introduce the NSX GT3 and maybe a Road Going version...Of course, it, the Lambo and Ferrari all seem locked up so don't hold your breath.
     
  15. Lgel

    Lgel Registered

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    Just made a few laps with the C6R_GT2, in my view one of the best GT cars in RF2, no problem at all to keep it on the track, and I am all but an alien driver, but I don't drive on the default setup.

    You just need to manage your inputs with finesse, no driving aids (ABS, TC).

    As a curious fact, on the same track (Portugal GP) the BMW_GT3 pulled 1,83 lat G at 120 km/h on the exit of a slow curve, at the same curve, the C6R_GT2 pulled 1,85 lat G at 100 km/h during corner entry.

    C6R tires may be obsolete (how they react to geometry adjustments, heat behavior), but the car is easy and interesting to drive, simply not as foolproof as S397 GT3 cars.

    Cheers.
     
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  16. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    I think the fool proof aspect come from the cars they actually built not the tyres. Being super grippy gt and endu cars.

    Lazza I'm sorry I don't have the actual code wisdom you have in regards to what goes under the hood of rf2.

    What I use is my experience trying all kinds of real cars on track to rally to open wheeler to cup, and my dream a gt car (getting there lol). Yes I'm not racing driver but I certainly can feel what's going on in them. I remeber jumping out of a formula Renault car and saying to myself rf2 doesn't feel like real life compared to a similar car, Say the f2. Real life as I said better low speed grip and I had miles more confidence in the real car than The ice feeling I get in older rf2 cars That's my opinion based on a real life experience.

    Just feels better now with the new tyres.
     
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  17. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    As much as I think we need to be careful about 'feel' between real life and sim (which is why I focus on numbers in regards to performance; more below), I respect your opinion in that way. As a keen simracer (driver) with experience of varying cars in a track context your view can only be seen as significant.

    You reduce your credibility when you talk about tyre model changes you have only a fleeting knowledge of.


    Regarding things like 'low speed grip', I've tried a few times tuning mods to suit the feel of part time racers (karts, low formula, sedan tuners). When they got the same sensation of low speed grip as they get in real life, the cars were insanely fast. So the disconnect between sim driving and real driving is easy to underestimate, I think.
     
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  18. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    I can appreciate that comment, I also respect your opinion as you have vast knowledge of rf2 and the physics.

    We both have opinions and thats totally fine with me.
     
  19. Nielsen

    Nielsen Registered

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    Just by coincidence saw this discussion.
    Conserning this low speed grip thing then as I remember it rF2 is absolutely not the worst in this area.:)
    But I can remember iRacing was completely off in this area and now it also irritates me that my prefered favorite at the moment Raceroom is close to be as bad as iRacing - when you try to drive on the edge.
    The problem is that under about 80kmH the grip is way to low - while the grip above this number is pretty reasonable in most sims.
    Hehe I have probably about 20-30 Raceroom replays saved in anger to cope with my irritation when the car again and again make a "nice" pirouette cornering at about 50-80kmH WITHOUT neither brake or (much) throttle input.:mad:
    The reason I interfer in this discussion is because I faintly recall a discussion in a forgotten NetKar Pro forum where it was revealed that this sim handled 2 different tire models at the same time.
    One for low speed and one for higher speed.
    And I also faintly remember that a lot of smart boys made fun of the sim because they concluded that this "issue" was some kind of ad hoc solution because the sims TM couldnt cope with grip change when large difference in speed was at stake.
    While others (like me) made the conclusion that this double TM solution was maybe closer to how grip in RL was destributed at different speeds.
    In RL you cannot get grannys old Toyota to make a pirouette at a speed between 40-60kmH - even with full throttle.
    In both iRacing and Raceroom this is very easy - even with half or less throttle.:rolleyes:
    Hehe even with cars on slicks:D
     
  20. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    True, but you miss one more important parameter, which is the fact of how much Gs tire is pulling. Speed only should reduce adhesion capabilities at some level, but generally the contact patch is always static in relation to the surface, of course except when tire is sliding. When tire is sliding it blends static and sliding friction, till it fades out into fully sliding mode (thats basically what slip angles/ratios are about). However speed is more important to sliding mechanics, naturally at lower speeds slides will be less severe and sliding friction should be higher, stopping the slide or preventing from complete spin out and bringing car back to static state of contact patch rolling sooner. At high sliding speed tire technically shouldn't be able to get any of adhesion grip, just getting it from abrasion and rubber getting sheared off. At low sliding speed some of adhesion should still be effective because rubber and tarmac simply should have more time to bond, also at higher speed temps from slides goes crazy which also makes bonding impossible and also spoils other ways the sliding friction is supposed to come from.

    As much as i know about rF2, all that should be majorly possible to simulate here. But there are two next variables in the chain. Human who utilises software by building a tire/car has to get it right. Then finally a person who gets to use end product (have fun at track) also has to be able to make a correct judgement. Frankly, IMO, the more towards the end the more prone this chain is for an error. Maker of a car is because there are just simply tons of parameters and possibilities for inaccuracy. User of a car because there are thousands of them, with different expectations and different understanding of what the real thing is... and thats the main reason what makes simracing the most complicated.

    In terms of only development, the way I understand the situation is that most fundamental challenges from how simulation softwares are built, and the way they are later utilised by the modeling of actual individual car/tires is getting these static grip/sliding grip situations right, because most of the physics goes from it or into it in terms of outputs/inputs. I suppose it is pretty complex to define the exact way the grip will evolve in countless different possible scenarios - different cars, different tires, different surfaces, different speeds, different stresses, different conditions.... still fundamentals should be roughly similar IMO, also actual variety of different scenarios not only makes the picture more complex, but it also actually provides wider range of cues, so basically, even though it makes it more complex it should help to make it possible to get more accurate, more pro... Just as example having a tire behaviour right in the dry might be ok, but still it can be not made correctly, then if you get same tire right in the wet AND in the dry, then more pieces of this parameters puzzle are likely to be solved, and tire/physics should improve in the wet and in the dry too...

    But at the end the most messed up thing is us. For example, I felt like I got one certain car pretty much nailed recently. Got it to other modders who apparently has entirely different views on realism, and they thought that it is wrong. Then I also got the car to some really skilled fast guy, he pointed out that he is capable of drifting it excessively at high speeds, which I thought was not a case, because I couldn't do it... People definitely makes the development the most complex, all that complexity under these products, and still the most complex part is to meet a user. Who can say if a user is right ? I guess depends on an arguments, hopefully productive.

    Is this a rant ? I am not sure :D
     

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