new tires for old cars

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by rd.king, Oct 6, 2019.

  1. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    Imo most sims don't get low speed grip entirely correct. Almost like below a certain speed the car loses all mass.

    But it will never replicate real life Its a game.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
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  2. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Damn I wrote such post, and it was a last in a page, I call it a fail :D

    Speaking of a mass, if car would loose all mass, it would also loose it's inertia, basically it would stop existing, or become an electromagnetic wave or something :D

    I think low speed feels the most off in simulation, because at low speed the differences in G forces are most dynamic. That is simply explained by the tight radius travel, which is the reason for turning at low speed in the first place... For example if you travel at large few hundred meters radius highspeed turn and you'll miss the grip and will loose trajectory (your travel radius will start expanding) you would technically experience little change in g force. But if you'd travel around very tight low radius curve and you'd slide off the trajectory just the same, youd simply feel greater difference in G forces.

    And yeah there should be good amount less sliding at lower speeds, but that also depends. Just maybe if you overshoot highspeed 150km/h corner by 5km/h, you'd slide just the same, as if you'd overshoot 40 km/h corner by 5 km/h, right ? It is quite relative.
     
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  3. Nielsen

    Nielsen Registered

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    I think the reason I still consider rF2s TM as the most reasonable and with lesser issues in the low speed department is because the grip REGAINING part is much better in rF2 than any other racing game (I know of).
    Because one thing is the feeling of "realism" when the car looses grip - but even more important(IMO) if the users senses can be persuated to believe that this (could) be RL is the way the car does regain grip in a slide after the speed have been lowered.
    I have been in this kind of discussion before inside iRacings forum and eventhough there ofcourse allways are a lot of fanboys who want to kill you :p then some of the faster and experienced drivers often admitted with a shrug that they often felt that it was quicker to regain grip in a low speed slide by stopping the car than by trying to countersteer waiting for the sim to regain grip "normally".
    And if my saved replays from Raceroom does document something then its this lack of a reasonable regain grip function.

    NB: Ofcourse when people say its quicker to regain grip by stopping the car it says more about their frustration than they literally does stop the car every time it begin sliding:)
     
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  4. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    It is not a function, it is physics.

    How on earth does it even count as regaining grip by stopping the car ? If you lost grip and you have to wait for a car to stop it means you spun out or just completely lost control to the point of no return, you have never truly regained grip :D

    There are many ways to regain grip if it is still possible, if it is not too far over the edge. As much as I understand basic ways of regaining grip in basic slide situations are: slow down a tire slide (wait to), decrease acceleration or deceleration of an overstressed tire or the acc/dec slip ratio, decrease lateral force on an overstressed tire or slip angle, increase vertical load on a tire (increase peak angle/ratio and friction). It is ofcourse goes very complex with four of them with many parameters changing all the time on each of them.

    If the only way for a slide to stop is wait for itself to do it, then it just means that at that point it is impossible to do it in other way and you should be asking why it is impossible, and should it be possible ? I don't think that it is unrealistic if a slide in some situation is so severe there is no other way for it to stop, but to rubbing speed off by sliding further.
     
  5. Nielsen

    Nielsen Registered

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    Because Im not trying to play smart here I will refrain from discussing all the different sliding situations where you more or less have lost all control of the car.
    They are not relevant!
    At least if you want to discuss how a racing sim does behave in the same extremely urgent area as in RL racing where the driver are playing on the edge between full control of any tendency of sliding and then going slightly over the "grip edge" where you momentarily get into the "loosing grip" area.:cool:
    A lot of RL racing drivers have admitted that moving into this area is what turns them on (racewise ;)).
    If a sim cannot make the regain part in this area more or less right then the driver HAVE to keep the car BELOW the "loosing grip" area.
    Which is constantly BELOW the socalled edge of adhesion.
    And by coincidence many iRacing pro drivers have admitted that what they use most of their practice time for is getting this driving "border" under their skin.
    Thats the reason the regaining part is so crucial for every racing game pretending to be some kind of "realistic".
    And nothing else.:cool:
     
  6. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    It really is one of the key aspect of simulating race driving. I am not speaking about iR since I have not used it for a long time, mostly because business model. But I do remember that some cars there does feel a bit more edgy than at least I expect, and seems like lots of people feel this way. But I'd like to use iR again to actually test the handling again.

    Personally, so far, I was convinced the best by the very first ACC early access iteration, and a lot of people complained about it being too difficult. AC in my opinion is too easy.

    Hard to talk about rF2 in general because there are plenty of very different content.

    But I definitely agree that cars should be drivable even going over the edge, well usually. But it has to be prevented from going too easy, which I suppose is very easy to do, much easier than make car difficult realistically, not too much, not too little. I also think that most race cars should require seat time, and handful of slowish pace driving to understand the car, and to get used to it, before unleashing it over the edge frequently. I can only imagine that the best of the best should be able to unleash the cars completely in a matter of minutes, the rest should be either going much slower, or crashing :D
     
  7. ECAR_Tracks

    ECAR_Tracks Registered

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    I think S397 need more employees to level the old content to the new content quality. There's track and cars (not only C6, not only the C6 tyres) that need serious updates. And they also need more human power to fix Cretaceous bugs. If you think C6 behavior weird try to race it in wet track.

    Let's make an arrangement, S397 increases their technical staff and creates a crowdfunding to rework the entire engine , including all irritating bugs on and offline and we'll support the rF2,5. At least I would, set the price and go for it.
     
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  8. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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  9. Nielsen

    Nielsen Registered

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    @LokiD
    Yeah but at least the guy responsible for Racerooms physics and tire model openly admit that there is some issues - and even better they are working on it.
    Promising attitude compared to some of the other racing game devs:)
     
  10. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    R3E attitude towards simulation is rather clear.
     
  11. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Had a go with NSX-R and ZR1 yesterday at Botniaring short. If you adjust pressures and cambers the cars doesn't feel too icy, well also if you don't go into turns too fast. But... I checked their values, and they does have friction levels which I would expect in 1962-1967 cars. But perhaps thats how street tires on those cars were... but doubt it.

    NSX-R seems like its tire is majorly sliding for any cornering. also it is weirdly difficult to spin rear tires if you want a little bit throttle steering, most likely you don't get it because.

    Vette ZR1 is a bit strange because it has low slip angles, so high cornering stiffness. It is a bit strange that such a heavy car has low slip angles. It has more grip than NSX but not so much, it also has more power obviously, which is cool. So it is quite weird combination steep cornering stiffness together with heavy car and lowish friction. When I drove I immediately lowered slip angles and tire pressures, so it is probably pretty bad in default. The car looksl ike it moves quite realistically in replays, though can be clearly seen how super sharp it is.

    Gonna try NSXR at buckmore later again, but I doubt I could get it like that:


    And thats another driving to replicate, it does look stiff and lowish on angles, but will it have this grip ?
     
  12. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    I also strongly disagree old tires were crap. You mean pre-CPM, early CPM, ones on historic cars? Also different cars had different tires and I don't think you can even lump them together. For me tires on R. Megane Tropy, Nissan GT1, C6R GT2, Nissan GT 500, F ISI, Marussia and some historic Formulas feel really great and subjectively quite realistic. These are more examples. I agree there were significant updates to CPM. The biggest was fix in QSA model in CPM 2.0, but even that was evolution rather than revolution. It applied to high speed/load situations. Then another significant, but incremental update was related with development of Endurance Pack cars. Since then there were no TM updates.
    I agree C6 road version feels weird, a bit too little grip, but perhaps it's realistic.
     
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  13. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    While you are digging into this, perhaps take a look at one of the newer versions used on the Nissan GTR 500. I get a slip feeling before the tire grips. compared to most of all the rest of the modern tires if just doesn't feel right.
     
  14. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Got plenty of fun with NSX and Corvettes this evening. Funny how I remember that I hated lack of grip of their tires about few months ago, but now it felt fine, even in the wet, though drove a bit too little in the wet and just with NSX (I thought that it even had too much grip lol).

    I guess an important factor is what cars have you been driving lately the most. If you mostly drove modern high end racecars with incredible amounts of grip and it has become normal to you, then actual normal grip tires then will seem messed up to you. Obviously same could be told about sense of speed, if you got dead custom to crazy fast racecar, you will have trouble adjusting to much slower pace, it will feel weird initialy. Same goes to so much different aspects of life :D

    When I drove these cars, I immediately set fully negative cambers and lowest pressures, so IDK how is the default setting anymore. And it doesn't matter.

    I got NSX-R bellow 1'29 at Goodwood Circuit, thats faster than the laptime that I find from real life. I did under 1'40 in wet without trying very much in almost completely wet track, and I think thats too fast, but I think rF2 generally is too fast in fully wet tracks, but it is probably already more than challenging for average joes driving desks at their "man" caves. I did have similar driving experience at Buckmore kart track like in Heusinkveld vide, although much less gracefully, much less... but with more seat time I guess it would be possible to do the same in rF2, kartsim Buckmore seems slightly more tight, and it is easy to overcook tire with one or two laps driving like that, the car does seem a bit less nimble than in Niels driving, but maybe thats just my hands are being slower.

    Got under 1'20 with ZR1 and almost with Z06 at Goodwood, and it was lots of fun. Just for comparison thats faster than 1966 GT40 MK1, and actually a bit faster than Lola T70 too, because I think I could have gone faster. Then I went to Nordschleife with ZR1, and easily did 7'28 with light rubber preset, and badly worn out and flatspotted tires after few failures in first lap, and still did lost control partially and kissed armcos a few times, which cost me at least 6 seconds, and I wasn't trying very seriously... Crappy tires ? I guess not. The car is blast to drive, and it is quite good loocking in replays the way it moves, I would rather wish that the 3D model would be updatedrather than tire or physics even would be touched. I think that old body paint looks quite great. Most awful is rimblur, rear lights in replays, and messed up headlights lighting at night.
     
  15. 2ndLastJedi

    2ndLastJedi Registered

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    I realize the new tyres on S397 cars are primarily slicks so just popping them on the C6 wouldn't make much sense but surely a variation of the Reiza Puma tyres or something could work. (I have no idea, just spit balling).
     
  16. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    It is funny how perception can tip over if you haven't use good reference to a real life, such as the most basic one a laptime.
     
  17. DrivingFast

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    I'm glad there's a debate on the need to bring some sports-supercar-hypercars on rF2 (~only 1 up to max 5 cars for all the future of rF2).

    There is a real demand :

    I hope that S397 will find a solution to satisfy everyone :

    Create one or a few sports-supercars-hypercars OR actively help the modders to make these cars (especially at the level of the creation of tires, just like Christopher Elliot helped SLOW MOTION GROUP on this topic [I think]).
     
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  18. DrivingFast

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    Oops .... I was wrong about the thread, I thought I was on the thread of "street cars", after reading the latest posts. :oops:
     

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