Released New Release Candidate Update - Client 7969457

Discussion in 'News & Notifications' started by Paul Jeffrey, Dec 15, 2021.

  1. Havner

    Havner Registered

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    I've seen you mentioning this situation many times. Do you have any actual proof that they actually went with the "pleasing people" path other than your own feel that the initial release was more realistic? I'm not judging here, I'm actually really curious. Did they actually admitted (directly or indirectly) that they forfeit their original path to please people or you base this whole statement purely on your own physics knowledge and experience?
     
  2. pilAUTO

    pilAUTO Registered

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    Just imagine two seconds :



    1) rF2 in 6 months with the many current issues, OK, no problem.

    * BUT *

    2) In 6 months the tire model that is currently used in the M4 and Fpro is greatly improved and developed, and ABSOLUTELY ALL the 55 S397 cars created in the last 5 years would be 100% updated to the new tire model and in terms of physics and also BOP..............................................





    rF2 would in 6 months become the most beautiful diamond that we can hope for the world of simracing.

    If this becomes S397's number 1 priority, in the short to medium term, then rF2 is saved in all respects (in my opinion).

    S397, did you read this post ;)
    @Paul Jeffrey

    [So I could be wrong, I am not a diviner.]
     
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  3. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Everyone has read your posts.
     
  4. Alex96

    Alex96 Registered

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    If they had to dedicate 6 months exclusively to fixing the problems that have existed for a long time in some areas and others that have arisen OR renew the tires of the entire fleet of vehicles, I prefer the first option 1000 times.
     
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  5. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    @pilAUTO This 6 month scenario has, what may be, a crucial flaw.(aside from the 6month deadline). I can't quote anyone, but I've got a memory of a staffer stating each tire, even on cars using the exact same tire, have to be polished to match each car. I took that as the Audi GT3 may wear tires differently than the Porsche GT3 etc (or slide more, anything really) and to create a workable balance the tires for each car had to be driven and tested a lot! Then small changes were made to the tire files so that each car behaved hopefully in an equal manner. The time required to change all the cars with all the tire data would be considerable. Just that one change, massive time suck.
    Add to that the considerable historical changes, The Nissan GT500 would not run on a tire comparable to today's Goodyears.
    The Mclaren MP4, or other historical era car's tires have to feel different from newer tires. Those would also be 'different' than the current generation. Each difference = more and more time.
    Consider how many cars have received a full PBR treatment inside & out. You would think that would be relatively straight forward, but very few of the DLC cars have cockpits that match the Ferrari or Corvette C8. If they can't get the cars all looking the same, how can we expect them to get the cars all driving the same?(within each car's window of performace that is)
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2022
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  6. pilAUTO

    pilAUTO Registered

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    We have to face the facts :

    rF2 will never be at the level of other simulations in the majority of areas which concern a *game* itself.

    On the other hand, wouldn't it be great if S397 manages to give a very big boost in the aspects relating to driving, to simulation, to driving realism, to the realistic and pleasant feeling of driving...

    I think we have to face the facts, rF2 will never be polished and comparable to a classic video game like AC, ACC, AMS2 is :

    Why not borrow one more way, forgive me the trivial expression, an "hardcore" way.

    But each one has his priorities is not it.
     
  7. pilAUTO

    pilAUTO Registered

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    The two solutions are defended.

    The first is to have a game that works well, even very well.

    The other is to have the game we have today with plenty of problems but which is playable, but with 55 particularly "realistic" cars to drive and homogeneous in the quality of their physics.

    If we could have both I'd be happy, but that's not possible. My preference is number 2.
     
  8. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Highly improbable for that to EVER happen, let alone in the next 6 months! I would be very happy if in the next 6 months just a small handful of new cars came out with the latest tyre data, and that these new cars made progress towards rewarding smooth (but still aggressive) driving and not the excessive slip angle driving.
     
  9. pilAUTO

    pilAUTO Registered

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    Exactly the problem with rF2 :

    1) Objectively it is extremely improbable that rF2 really competes on the purely video game aspects (sound, graphics, UI, online and offline experience, etc etc etc) with the best of simracing.


    BUT...


    2) When it comes to doing what is necessary to make a difference regarding the realism, the simulation, the realistic and pleasant feeling of driving and the consistency and updating of all cars in terms of physics... rF2 is not up to the task.


    Do you see a bright future for our favorite simulation ? LOL
     
  10. Kahel

    Kahel Registered

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    I'm never surprised when I see the frustation go into 'burst mod'... it's bond to happen for time to time.

    We were hoping for devs that would continue developping the Rfactor legacy... instead we got a 'glorified modder team'...

    Truth is... we would have been better off rf2 dying 5 or 6 years ago... and let the community decide if it was worth investing time on it... or not...

    If we look back... the end of 'rfactor' can be traced back to the genesis of rf2... by going in a totally different direction of what made it successful in the first place... a passionate product made for the community and developed, in return, by the community itself.

    Does it mean I can't enjoy a good race in rf2... of course not... it's still (saddely, yet not surprisingly) my go to sims despite everyting...

    but.. thinking back... I have to say that I have been longing for an alternative for the most part of the decade...
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2022
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  11. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    First of all, it isn't black or white. Differences and less intense handling was expected for 2nd build, but not dramatic shift. When you have a studio working on a simulation for a long time, having real drivers testing and giving feedback and then making drastic changes the 2nd build because of players opinions, it does show that many random people can leverage out experts and creators opinion. There sure is a chance that I am incorrect, and they have just made some tweaking mistake last moments before release. There were some explanations given that it was supposedly some errors in geometry and inertia, but I don't believe that, these were most likely some key physics 1st order effects involved such as tires grip composition and/or aerodynamic sensitivity. They also said that they only allow themselves freedom to tweak (or guesstimate) parameters of which there is no data. And there is no other option anyway. When devs are guesstimating they must rely on logic, observations, knowledge and qualified feedback. It is an issue when developers rely on unqualified feedback - and hundreds and thousands of random players is exactly that. Sometimes it is not even that many, but just majority of vocal people online. It is not a definitive proof. But it is a proof that simulation is very fragile when creators are inclined to conform to random public opinions, and they are because they sell it to them. So... there is no actual proof, it is either one of two: either proof that some foolish mistakes has been done for real, or it is a proof that a creator is not willing to defend his own work and ideas even though perhaps these are the things which he believes in himself, but is willing to betray beliefs for sake of being liked and successful (and then just post an apology/admit mistakes yada yada...). Basically twitter in past ten years.

    There are things that are not as simple to prove as 4=2+2. In driving simulation observance and logic will always be critical for validating how close simulation is to reality, to tell if it is more likely too difficult, or too easy ? Too much or not ? Tracking down the reasons of that. All of that is pretty difficult, and when you also take in account opinions of other people it becomes very heavy. Somebody is wrong. And it is always difficult, admitting you are wrong is difficult, opposing and rejecting others opinions also is difficult as it is perceived unfriendly due some strange irrational social dynamic.

    I wish it was easy to point out stuff. Closest to proof are these two things. First is the separation threshold between intermediate drivers and pros - challenging handling gives wide threshold, easy handling gives narrow threshold (how close you can get to top laptimes before it becomes insanely difficult and assuming there is no cheating or unequal conditions). Second thing is to pay great attention to transients of the car grip - how quickly it can loose and regain traction, it often goes together with how quick and precise your steering has to be, because marginal errors in control has greater consequences simply because performance curves of tires grip or/and aerodynamic grip are more peaky with stronger drops.

    I personally think that last three cars of S397 were really good. I haven't really seen a lot of negative opinions. I think it is so because simracers of rF2 has wider acceptance range. As opposing to Kunos AC which always had very centralized feel to it, that may be strange at first, but if you spend thousand hours on it, then you start to believe thats how it should be. And it also was the reason why ACC had plenty of criticism at first, it just wasn't AC (at first).
     
  12. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    The fun fact is that this wouldn't change anything. rF2 had the best physics and tire model (or atleast most complex) for several years and the product didn't take off for different reasons. Now the product looks acceptable and in some areas even very good for the most part and yet, player numbers are going backwards.

    First of all you shouldn't look at rF2 as a racing sim but a consumer product. And in that respect it shows alot of flaws, that are simply unacceptable, no matter if it is a racing sim, a design software, an arcade game, a bowling simulator or what ever. How many times have we seen people telling the devs that a white background in a UI is not a good idea? And the issue is amplified if you wear a VR headset and have that bright screen right infront of your eyes. Why make the UI so convoluted, with diagonal shapes and all? Look what other products offer, take the best out of it and combine it. No other consumer software that I know has diagonal shapes in it, again for very obvious reasons. The response to the new UI has been pretty clear and there was done very little.

    And now to the stuff that really makes it break as a racing sim. There are features in the so called inferior other products that are genre standard by now or where those "arcade" titles far exceed rF2 as a racing sim. ACC has great features like wind, track temps and ambient temps that affect the driving, same goes for AMS2, AC and iRacing. Most of the other products have far more advanced clutch and drive train modeling, so that people can put their expensive H-pattern shifters to good use. Here we mostly get the response that the hardware isn't up to the task. Stuff like that really makes me shake my head. Same for simple requests like a padel overlay to tweak the FFB and check clipping. This stuff worked years ago allready in rF1 or even AMS. The iRacing AI will have surpassed the rF2 AI long before we have seen any considerable fixes, to issues that are game breaking and I wouldn't be suprised if the FCY and SC system in AMS2 actually works before we see any changes in rF2. Can you believe that offline racing in rF2 was once regarded as the best offline racing experience? Then you have all the other neat details that simply work great in other products. ACC has changable brakepads, AC has hybrid systems. The FPro would have been a perfect opportunity in that regard.

    And this brings me to my last point: the content. The new tracks and track updates have been sublime, there is no arguing. But you can't carry a product with tracks alone. The car content through the last twelve months has been pretty poor and I haven't spent a single penny. In a time when there is an obvious trend to offer historic content, we have a product that has an extreme focus on electric racing. I am sorry to say this, but you don't attract masses by developing controversial content. If you watch the first rF2 trailer you might understand, what got the rF2 die hard fans attracted in first place and it simply pains me as a petrol to think about the fantastic lisences that got too easily wiped away that would greatly fit into the sim. The Mercedes W154, the Reynard 95i, he Eagle, the March 86C or the Benley Speed 8 just to name a few. Most of this can be seen in other products today. It's no suprise that sim racers go somewhere else.

    Anyway, let's see what the new year brings but I am carefully optimistic.
     
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  13. juanchioooo

    juanchioooo Registered

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    I do not use old cars, on the other hand, the electrics would catch fire, even the current formula 1 that seems like shit to me, regarding the clutch although you are right I do not care for the same thing, I do not use it ,,,,, as for the other games such as ACC, AC, the Iracing scam (pay and pay for nothing, rental game, you don't pay for a year and you have nothing, it doesn't matter what you have invested) or AMS2 are a disappointment, not so the AMS QUE IT WAS AND IT IS GREAT ..... the future always optimistic and faithful to rfactor2 we will see the improvement
     
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  14. atomed

    atomed Member

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    I know latest events or lack thereof haven't been too favorable to rF2 but I still enjoy it each time I turn it on. Happy new year to the whole team, hope you and The Sim have a good one.
     
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  15. vava74

    vava74 Registered

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    Personally I do not believe AT ALL necessary for any rFactor 2 car with tyres pre-October 2017 to receive the new updated tyres from the Formula Pro and the M4 Class 1.
    Those tyres are fine and cars such as the GT500, Megane, Formula ISI, etc are joy to drive with them.
    Only contents which really should have it's tyres revised/replaced are the the GT3s and the Endurance Pack cars.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2022
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  16. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    Wait, they updated the UI?
     
  17. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Don't compete? Then ask why Honda/Acura and Ferrari RARELY let their cars be track tested vs other similar supercars. They compete, for every dime.
     
  18. juanchioooo

    juanchioooo Registered

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    The reality is that they will not give any real formula 1 data for a simulator to the public, that is a reality ..., also the hybrid system is only interested in the new technologies, and four cats, ... but the The reality is that not even paying you will get the real data
     
  19. juanchioooo

    juanchioooo Registered

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    you are dreamer;)
    don't be delusional
    not exactly what is the translation but I think you are ILLUSION
     
  20. Pales

    Pales Registered

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    Well, after reading the release candidate notes and recent comments, I think it's safe to say now that a large majority of the player base are unhappy with the direction of the game, and have been for a while. This was always going to happen with the direction Marcel chose, and I'm pleased that people are finally communicating this across in such large numbers.

    How can you truly expect anyone to invest in your game and purchase the various cars and tracks that you offer when you can't even have any sort of a meaningful offline race in rFactor 2?

    Let's have a look at Leman as an example, shall we? You're fully aware that the AI are unable to utilize the slipstream - even if they're a much faster class. You're also aware that if the AI intend to pit, the logic does not allow for them to overtake other cars during an inlap - even if they're a much faster class. So already it is fundamentally flawed, and when you factor in that cars have to pit for fuel and tyres, it makes the situation even worse. See the problem? So we're effectively forced to turn off fuel wear, tyre wear, flags, and only race on tracks where the majority of the track is curves. See the problem?

    May I also remind you of erratic throttle and breaking that you introduced in 2018 for AI that resulted in slower times, the obnoxious throttle sound and that it causes the AI to crash? You never bothered to fix that. The same could also be said for full course yellows and, oh yeah, wet weather - where cars repeatedly pit.

    But yes, you keep pushing online and graphical updates whilst the player count dwindles. You've had 5 years but all it has been is neglect. The fact that you haven't even bothered to address bugs relating to the AI that you have 'unintentionally' caused during your time here just shows how little you care.

    I think we all know now that some serious investment is required in the offline department. You have absolutely no reason at all not to do this in 2022, it's been far too long.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2022
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