I want to manually start my engine all the time!

I recall two full presses and then try to turn it over. Unless it was cold then you may have had to feather the throttle while starting too.

I think it should be possible to fail at starting a carb car. Throw some indicators up for flooding. Maybe some popup instructions for how to get the car going.

 

It starts to sound like a payware Fsx add-on, the like you have to follow manual precisely to get going.
I wouldnt mind, Im sure a lot would be frustrated.

(to add to the complication, when outside temp was high, flooded carb would be allright soon, cause of high evaporation)

 

I don't think it's a flaw.
It's simply the lack of a feature that would add to the realism.
I would like to have it too, but maybe it should be optional, as it is in NKP, if I remember correctly.

 

I don't want current starting sequence either, it's silly! Let ME start the car!!!!!

 

Fair enough.

I believe that if RF2 is attempting to recreate the race car driving experience then the inability to start the cars properly is a flaw, a basic one that hits you as soon as you enter the car. However, I'm not sure there's much to be gained by debating whether its a flaw or a missing feature.

Certainly agree it should not be forced on users but I believe this should've been long since implemented and that we should be debating loftier ambitions than simply starting the car in a realistic manner befitting a modern sim.

 

For those that are taking guesses and such, street car starting procedure for carb equiped engine was to tap the throttle to allow the cam for the choke to pivot so it would hold the throttle open slightly, then crank the car. If you pressed the throttle more than just a quick tap you were likely to flood the engine and have to crank for a little bit to clear out all the extra gas. On hot days you had other issues depending on the year of the car and who made it. For instance, vapor lock where the fuel in the fuel line would turn to vapor before reaching the fuel pump. The pump being mechanical was unable to pump vapor, only liquid, so you would have a stalled engine till things cooled under the hood.

For carberateur equiped race cars, the procedure is different. First off, race carbs don't normally have chokes. You would need to pump the throttle about half way and back to released, then start turning the engine over. If the engine started to fire, you would open the throttle a little in the hope that it would "catch" and start to run. From this point you either held the throttle open a little for about a minute and a half to get the engine warm enough to vaporize the fuel, or you blipped the throttle for this period of time. Either way would work.

Higher end series with lower weight limits tended to have no starter on board to save that extra 30Lbs. For those cars they either had to be push started as is the case with a lot of modern dirt sprint cars, or they had to have a way to connect a remote starter similar to what top fuel racing uses in order to turn the engine over. With the no starter version of the cars, you had to be sure you didn't stall the car or you would be waiting for either a push or a tow.

Another point to make here as far as realism is concerned is spin induced stalls. This usually happened if you started to do a 360 degree spin and didn't disengage the clutch. The pressure on the drive wheels while the transmission was engaged would cause the engine to want to either stop or start turning backwards as the tires were forced in the opposite direction.

 

Flooding is not very easy to do with many carb equipped street cars, yesterday I did start one of my old cars again, pumping throttle twice makes accelerator pump to put some fuel into intake, so it acts as a primer, car starts immediately when turning key and runs short while. That is required with many of older vehicles to avoid 30 seconds starter test as mechanical fuel pump needs to pull fuel from tank to carb, especially after not used for few days, carb is rather dry and even fuel lines can be rather dry as old mechanical pumps fail to keep fuel up, problems with one way valve.

Accelerator pump unit itself can still have fuel even carb is dry, so pumping pedal few times allows engine to start and fuel pump is filling carb much faster at running rpm than starter rpm, so when fuel fumes run out from intake there comes fresh supply of fuel to carb and engine keeps running.

This is even more important when there is -20C and there are very limited amount of startup attempts available due to cold making natural battery condition test event.

I used to own one V8 car without choke (choke was broken), had no trouble starting at -15C, first pumping pedal for 10-15 times, then turn key and same time pump the pedal and try keep balance between too much and too little, just short quick blips, not even half the throttle. It had very bad battery, which gave only one startup attempt and TH200R4 automatic box, which of course did require engine to be warmed up before attempting to go as cold motor was quite easy to stop by putting gear on drive and there was indeed just one attempt available, then 30mins of running and you could get another startup, for example when visiting shop.

Hot starting was then such that one needed to open throttle tiny bit, otherwise it flooded from some reason that I never quite figured out why, maybe carb was dripping fuel to intake or something silly as that.

But when motor was rather hot, like driving on highway kind of road for few hours, then pulling to fill tank (few hours was operating range) it was rather difficult to start as starter barely had power to turn hot engine over, lot of reason was bad battery too, but what I understand hot race motor is difficult to turn over too with starters they have, reasons being bit different but challenged remained similar with that machine.

As temperature changes quite a bit how startup happens, it might be indeed nice to have that simulated too, spin out and stall, then you would need to do right things to get going again and it would not be just simply wait few seconds and get going again, which does not create fear to spin, same as with damage, both change racer's attitude about driving which creates that great racing or poor racing.

As probably most are simulation freaks, most would probably look such change in racing positively.

Then there is that other side of coin, who remembers netkar pro early versions? You had to turn several switches on with mouse and you had indeed a limited amount of startups available, some switches were behind steering wheel as that is where they had them in real cars I suppose. There was rather large amount of whining from not being able to start the car, even from my memory there was guides about starting.

Then they changed that to silly always running as default and there was option to choose more realistic method for those that did want it, but it shows how even product directed towards only simulation fans, could not get away with hardcore way only.


What comes to driving aids / clutch issue, if game has assigned clutch, then auto clutch should not be available unless car had such feature, no need for hardware id's or difficult things like that, just check if clutch is assigned as control or not and that problem is solved.

But then again, if one drives without clutch pedal and uses auto clutch, does that driver face same challenges as other drivers using the clutch? Without clutch stalling becomes impossible, if it is wanted that all race with similar challenges to test skills in equal manner, it is bit problematic. Also there are other issues related, like amount of wheel turns etc. that can affect a lot to challenge levels, but that is probably completely another subject from starting, even clutch issue partly relates to staring too.

 

Im waiting for the "Staff posted" sign...

Come on!

 

In your case jtbo you are most likely right about how you had to start your car. For cars that were in "new" condition though, what I stated above is fact as to how to start the car when everything is right. This was also in a daily driven scenario, though weekly driven shouldn't be any different as the fuel lines and the fuel pump are fairly well sealed and won't let the fuel evaporate that quickly. The carburetor would be able to maintain fuel in the float bowl as well as all the lines for a month easy unless there were issues with the lines or the pump in which case they should be replaced or repaired. I am pretty sure that the race cars we would be dealing with in any racing sim is going to be in like new condition or they are going to get run off the track by the tech inspectors

The reason that hot race engines are harder to start is because parts in the engine expand when they get hot, and race engine parts are at a closer tolerance than street engines. What happens is that the compression rings on the pistons expand under normal race conditions to make just about a perfect seal of the chamber + or - about .001". Some engine builders might even make the tolerance a bit closer, but not by much. If the engine runs too hot, the rings will expand to the point that they are resisting piston travel quite a bit making it harder to start. The same goes for all the engine bearings. They are fitted to allow for oil passage around the journals, but not by much, only enough to lubricate the part and keep it from seizing. If you get the engine too hot, the bearings expand more and they too put drag on the part making it more difficult to turn the engine.

In most V8 engines you have 5 main bearings that support the crankshaft, 1 bearing on each end of the connecting rod that holds the piston to the crank, so 16 bearings on the connecting rods, 5 cam bearings, plus any bearings that might be used in the valve train. All of these are going to expand as heat affects them. All will make it tougher to turn the engine when overly hot.

As far as with or without clutch driving in sims, some penalize you for using auto clutch some don't. You just have to play around with the sim a bit to see if there is an advantage to using the clutch.

 

What about banger series etc. that I believe were rather popular in rF1?
Maybe it should be possible to tweak age component of starting procedure by modder?

Of course this is very unlikely feature to be implemented, but certainly there are more than one person that would like to have this area to be improved. I believe main focus is in racing, not so much in reality copying perfectly as gains there are relatively small, even many would like to see such, those little things probably don't bring much cash to company and in business they have to consider these realities also.

That is true about smaller tolerances, with Olds 307 issue was partly from starter, heat from block caused it to have tad small clearances because of expansion.

 

I've managed to do some workaround for automatic engine start in pits via keyboard macro (I have Logitech G15). How does it work? Basically, when I press single key on my keyboard, my mouse move to RACE button, mute the starting engine sound and turn of car ignition. You only have to wait 4-5 seconds for starting engine sound to finish (which you won't hear because macro turned your sound temporarily off).

First setup the profile macro script
http://i.imgur.com/UlNY6.jpg

Then add some additional macro commands for chosen key (mine was G1)
http://i.imgur.com/sPG2y.jpg

Short video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRZWzrPrVIY

I've did this by myself, maybe there was a simpler way, but I've managed to get it work this way also. For people without Logitech keyboards, if your keyboard doesn't support macros, there is AutoHotkey software which can do pretty much the same thing.

But I hope that ISI will implement option for turning of auto start for engine..

 

+1 to op suggestion

 

I'm not sure if this has been posted, but

From Stefano Casillo.

Don't hold your breath on this one

 

Stefano had said in an interview that nobody from his team had missed that feature from netkar.

 

Well that is nice for his team.. I am sure his team isn't going to be buying the sim 200,000 times. Hide it in the PLR or Controller.ini. Just like all the awesome options.

 

Probably why I have always wanted 2 versions of one sim.

Pro and Normal

Yes yes I know I know ( sheeesh ) lopl ...... " They could turn all /most off anyway in one version, you don't need 2 to do that "


But ........that was never the point for me.

Single word realism.
Example that you cant just enable a aid or flick a switch to escape to pits when you don't feel like driving back to pits.
Lots of things in life we do not feel like doing. hehehe

 

I have one spare ignition lock here, would it be silly if I wanted to modify G25 to have two buttons wired to ignition lock, so you turn key to run position and get ignition and turn, then turn key to start position to start the car?

One might find those cheap from junkyard and wiring two buttons to have ignition lock shorting connection points should be relatively simple, or maybe even custom button box for the application.

It would add nice touch, but to get most of it, one would of course need starter sound playing as long as starter button is pressed and no any longer.

Anyway that is something I would like to be possible too.

Some build full car interiors with all the gadgets, so it would certainly be good for such systems, one could even wire it so that at first position of key you get dash and instrument cluster powered up, would add nice touch.

 

The only issue would probably be that you would need to mod the wheel to eliminate a couple of buttons and wire the ignition to those button outputs. You would also likely need to pay attention to output resistance as well as any voltages passed through the ignition to be sure it was compatible with the circuit design of the wheel. Most ignitions systems are designed around 14 gauge wire or thicker to be able to handle the current of a real car and you might find it difficult to wire to the wheel system.

I would thing a better option would be something that is already being done with other button boxes and that is include an ignition switch and starter button in that type of box. Pretty sure that Derek Speare has boxes like that already designed.

In most modern race cars though, there isn't really a key required. There is a battery cut off switch and several switches to turn on fuel pumps, water pumps and various other things as well as a starter switch to turn the engine over when a starter is actually installed in the car. Even touring cars are setup without an actual ignition switch.

All of that aside, if you want to wire an ignition switch up and have the tools and knowledge to do so, by all means, Do what you feel is right for your own cockpit hehe.

 

Just as a side note, the following image is what I would want to eventually setup for a sim design: http://image.trucktrend.com/f/20547...sandvik_trucking_1998_peterbilt+dash_view.jpg

 

Lol, yeah but that cockpit is more suitable for Eurotrucker 2, which btw is a pretty good trucker-sim..