Help with AI on street circuits

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by RoboCAT10, Apr 30, 2016.

  1. RoboCAT10

    RoboCAT10 Registered

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    So I am using the FISI 2012 cars and I realise on every street circuit their is always carnage. An accident every 20 or so laps would be fine but not every lap. I see the AI will hit the wall and the AI behind will drive straight into him, it's carnage, but way too much.

    This happens at Adelaide, Macau, Singapore, and Monaco. The former brig the only one made by ISI. I have lowered the AI aggression setting to 0% but this still happens.

    I also ask that why are the AI poor on street circuits. We had the same problem on rfactor1 and F1Challenge before it. Why can the Codemaster and Sony F1 games have decent street circuit AI but ISI can't?

    Does anybody have a solution or advice for this issue, just anything so there are not crashes every lap. I want to have an AI race at Adelaide and it would be a shame for it to miss out.
     
  2. PearceYaussy

    PearceYaussy Registered

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    The AI currently tend to ignore corridors and assume there is runoff area, even if there isn't. Therefore, on a tight street circuit like Monaco, the AI try to use a curb that doesn't exist, and hit the wall at corner apex. It's a very common issue with pretty much every street circuit. It's not really something that can be fixed form a user standpoint, it has been a problem since the launch of rF2 years ago that has apparently never been worked on. I have to just avoid racing with AI on these circuits, unfortunately.

    As for why ISI can't fix this issue that other sims don't have, because they haven't really tried to (obviously) because like you say, It's been around for generations of ISI sims, not only rF2.

    Right now, the priority seems to be on NASCAR and oval tracks, which is only catering to the masses and trying to get more sales.

    I apologize for being blunt, but this issue has been around for way too long. I too would like to have a decent AI race on a street circuit sometime soon.

    It seems ISI's philosophy is similar to what Microsoft does with Windows, instead of working on issues at the core, just keep layering on more and more quick fixes on top of the old stuff.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2016
  3. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    Set AI Limiter = 0 so the AI aren't so bunched up.
    Give the AI different setups so the AI aren't so bunched up.
    Try training the AI with Type 2 training so they know appropriate responses to different situations.
     
  4. Satangoss

    Satangoss Registered

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    Where this info came from? In my track AI are strictly obeying the allowed corridors.
     
  5. stonec

    stonec Member

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    Why ISI hasn't fixed it is simply because none are driving on street circuits. Ok, there is one street track in the official game, but even that is barely used by anyone, no league or online event is as mad enough to be racing on Monaco, especially with historic version. Obviously they could fix it and they probably would if they were building a new street track as official content, but I understand it's not a priority when only a small fraction of users will ever run street circuits in rF2.
     
  6. redapg

    redapg Registered

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    Did you try Lester with my Community Update 1.10?
    If not, you could try it out (select the "new AIW" Track from the Menu) and report if you get the same Problems.

    Downloads:
    Lester 1.0

    Lester Community Update 1.10
     
  7. RoboCAT10

    RoboCAT10 Registered

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    But there is still a portion of people who paid real money for the game and are disappointed that the AI are completely useless at a street track. I'm sick of hearing this 'no one uses street circuits'. Yes they do! - well at least try to. It's just impossible to have a good AI race when they just can not race. ISI just don't want to fix it because uhh reasons which I believe is just lazy and a neglect to other paying customers. We are in the year 2016, yet ISI continue to dish out crap AI that can't navigate around a street circuit!

    They continue to release all these updates but there is never a solution to AI street racing, but how hard can it be when other racing games don't have this problem. Are ISI simply just not good enough in that area? Great tracks like Monaco, Macau, Singapore, Adelaide etc are going to waste in an AI racing perspective and that is a shame and something that really shouldn't even be a problem.
     
  8. PearceYaussy

    PearceYaussy Registered

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    Mainly when racing side by side, they will give each other too much room, even when there is no room to give, and drive into the wall as a result. For instance, when side by side, the outside AI car will sometimes run wide into the wall on corner exit. Or the inside AI will hit the wall at corner apex. It's kind of reverse logic in a way.

    We are talking about an issue that has been around since the earliest ISI games (EA F1, F1 challenge) where this issue is always present at Monaco, which is arguably the most important circuit in F1. It's not because of lack of usage in rF2.
     
  9. PearceYaussy

    PearceYaussy Registered

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    "Crap AI" may be a slight overstatement, as I have had some great races with them on many permanent circuits. The lack of spatial awareness and blindly driving into walls only really shows up on street circuits where the track is lined with walls instead of grass or curbs or asphalt runoff areas. The same issue occurs, but instead of hitting the wall and wrecking half the field, they just put 2 wheels on the grass, and come right back on track. No harm done.

    Again, My idea still stands, we need, instead of just two sets of corridors, we need, 3. "Cut track", "drivable area", and "walls". This would help tremendously with the AIs spatial awareness. Then they could run wide or hop a curb, but only when it's actually a curb, and not an armco. Lol.

    Drivable area being racing surface, curbs, and tarmac runoff areas. "Walls" being the grass and sand traps and all other area where it is possible to drive without hitting anything, currently just the "corridors"...

    In a way the AI is being too smart, because they try to modify their lines for better racing, and it just doesn't work on street circuits.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2016
  10. Satangoss

    Satangoss Registered

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    The last section of this document would be useful for who are coding AIW for street races.

    http://imagespaceinc.com/downloads/rf2/modsresources/rF2_AIW_Creation_Tutorial.pdf

    "In the case of the Monte Carlo chicane, the white lines were slowly tapered in from before the brake
    zone began up until the turn in for the chicane. What this did was cause the AI to believe the track
    was getting more and more narrow, thus forcing them to try to go into the turn in single file (as much
    as the situation would allow).
    This is not a very time consuming tweak, and it can make a lot of difference for tracks with problem
    turns such as this."

    The corridors should be conservative to avoid "side by side" all the time ending in crash, havoc and a row of safety-cars entrance in sequence. In addition, I've seen several tracks without BLOCK line in AIW file, so the AI car never defend his position producing too many overtake tries (more chance of tragedies).
     
  11. Jka

    Jka Member Staff Member

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    AI is just good as track builder's AIW file. If 3rd party track builder is not capable of making competitive, fully working, bug-free AIW, that is not ISI's fault. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with game's AIW code. I kindly suggest to get your facts straight before publicly accusing and insulting software manufacturer like that.

    I just checked out one of those 3rd party street tracks AIW in editor of your "Great Street Tracks List". I did see after 5 seconds several things, which are wrong and which affect deeply AI behaviour and AI racing experience. Track builder can fix it, all documentation and information is available, its only matter of motivation to do it. But in your opinion, bad 3rd party AI behaviour is ISI's fault as well, right?
     
  12. RoboCAT10

    RoboCAT10 Registered

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    Get your facts straight man. This has been an occurring issue in previous ISI instalments (F1Challenge, rfactor1). This problem also occurs at Monaco which is ISI made. It shouldn't be up to the customer to fix issues. ISI should be on top of that and in this day and age is pretty pathetic.
     
  13. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    No Robo, he´s right! It was also in rF1 the case that you could tweak the AIW in a way that they don´t ram into the wall!
    The same with rF2. Most track modders doesn´t put the effort in AIW as they should. Sad but true.
     
  14. RoboCAT10

    RoboCAT10 Registered

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    Yes but why do we have to tweak the AIW when ISI could just work on the AI on street circuits. On rfactor1 and F1 Challenge the AI were still poor on ISI made street circuits. I'm sorry but this really confuses me and I would even know where to start with editing the AIW - I just wish this was already up to standard after purchasing the game. I suppose it's not a huge deal - just don't use any street circuit which is a shame.
     
  15. RoboCAT10

    RoboCAT10 Registered

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    Okay, so if ISI and third party can not fix AI at street circuits, how can I? Is there a link to a good tutorial on how to improve on this area and AIW. Although I've never done this before. I'm trying to get Adelaide to work.
     
  16. Jka

    Jka Member Staff Member

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    What particular ISI's official street circuit you are talking about? Monaco? It's historical track and AIW is optimized to historical formula cars.

    I'm still bothered that you blame ISI about something what they have no control. 3rd party tracks are 3rd party tracks, and you should focus to communicate with track authors instead of blaming someone else about their bad AIW.

    rF2_AIW_Creation_Tutorial.pdf

    In the end of that document Scott decribes how to adjust AI behaviour on tight corners/chicanes. Check that out and start testing it with Adelaide.
     
  17. monoplazas_RR

    monoplazas_RR Registered

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    I have tested our conversion a moment ago. With 24 cars in 10 laps, 0 accidents.

    I have made some small adjustments in the corridors, it is true, but very small, nothing too important in relation to the previous version.

    Perhaps with another mod is different, I don't know, but with our F1 mod (based on FISI) everything is going well.
     
  18. RoboCAT10

    RoboCAT10 Registered

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    Adelaide I assume? If so that does feel me with some hope but I don't know why I am having all these incidents though. AI aggression has been turned all the way down and I've tried it on other settings too. :-/
     
  19. RoboCAT10

    RoboCAT10 Registered

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    Your ignoring my entire point in a previous post. This has been an occurring issue in all the previous ISI games. It's an occurring issue still.
     
  20. monoplazas_RR

    monoplazas_RR Registered

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    I was speaking about Monaco, we don't have any conversion of Adelaide, sorry.
     

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