Forced cockpit view - reasons?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Lazza, Aug 9, 2019.

  1. JimmyT

    JimmyT Registered

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    Wow, you really hate VR.
    Not sure if I should take offence at being called a cheat :eek: or if I should suggest you try VR for yourself, you may like it.;)
     
  2. Bernd

    Bernd Registered

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    I am an older person, so it can happen that i forget things quickly and it is a while ago, when i did read your opening post. :)
     
  3. Launger

    Launger Registered

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    Without reading the replies, I agree that forced cockpit is not a realistic solution unless the driver is also forced to use VR or 3 screens.
    On a single screen, having your monitor project a bonnet view is actually more realistic FOV wise, as the "cockpit" of the car is the room around you in real life.
    But at least with most cars in rF2 at least you can adjust the cockpit position so far that it almost becomes the correct position for a single screen. That is the case with the WFG Aston too - you can adjust it like the left picture on my attached illustration.
     

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  4. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    I don't hate it at all.
    I tried VR in a few non-racing games and demos and it was a blast, fantastic experience and maybe biggest revolution in gaming I've seen (and my first computer was ZX Spectrum in 1985.)
    I can only imagine how immersive it would be in racing sim.

    Don't take my posts too seriously, in this thread they are mostly sarcastic.
    Was just pointing out that forcing cockpit view doesn't really save you from potential VR "cheaters" as Steve Olden and Lazza explained.
     
  5. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    This.

    ... which leads me to (see next post)...
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  6. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    Thx, nice pic which should clarify things.
    This is how bonnet view looks more or less.
    It can be clearly seen the advantage it gives over cockpit view in triples, right? :rolleyes:
    Of course not.
    In fact the opposite. It can be seen that single screen user is at disadvantage no matter which view is used.
    Even in bonnet view single screen player can't see apex, let alone other cars around him. Now put dashboard on top of that and it becomes even smaller window as Lazza said.
    There is no sane person that would drive in real life with a limited view like that.
     
  7. krusti

    krusti Registered

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    I don't agree, imo it's relative to who is using given hardware, i see a lot of triple monitor users not being able to respect spaces on track, as i see a lot of single monitor users being able to do a complete lap side by side without any issue. Let's be honest, you don't really need to directly see your opponent in your side if you already know he is there (can be easily done using mirrors..). If you don't see the apex of a turn with a single monitor, then your view is not properly set up.

    I was a bonnet view guy in the past, then i built my rig and placed my monitor where it should be, right behind my wheel, and now i can't use a different camera than cockpit view without cringing, it changed my mind.
    In my league i force the cockpit view, because cars are driven from the cockpit, and most of the cars in rF2 have a very wide range of seat adjustments, if a car have a very limited seat adjusments, perhaps it is better to avoid it (or to fix it when possible).

    We could start posting a screenshoot of our view, we may find something interesting.
     
  8. Bernd

    Bernd Registered

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    To argue consequently then, you also would have to say that cars are driven with steering wheels and force the use of steering wheels only.
    Oooooops, that is not possible....
    If VR users can preset the VR in a way that they can use every point of view that they want, you only give them an advantage, when you force a specific view on a server.
    In my opinion it makes no sense to force a specific view on servers, when i see all the possibilities to workaround it.
    And maybe you would get more participiants, if you don't do it.
    But, it's the decision of each league/league-/server-manager what to do.
    For me it's the fun to race against each other that has the priority.
    And the larger the grid, the more fun. ;)
     
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  9. Supa

    Supa Registered

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    Yes I have used bonnet, swingman etc and yes I'm faster than in cockpit view. I know some Leagues force cockpit view for this very reason.
     
  10. krusti

    krusti Registered

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    In the past 2 championships im my league ~45 simracers per each championship has accepted the fixed cockpit view, in VEC there are 140 teams (from 3 to 5 drivers per team) who has accpeted the fixed cockpit view, in SRCA the entry list get fullfilled in 5 minutes every season, and every season there are always 45 different simracers. I can do many other examples, fixed view seems to have nothing to do with partecipants number, the trend seems to be even opposite.
    It's also possible to force the use of steering wheel as it's pretty easy to check if one is using it or no, then just do not allow him to take part until he get a steering wheel.
    I get your point, it is valid, but not with the rF2's userbase, when i locked the cockpit view at the start of the past championship in my league, only 2/45 simracers noticed that.
     
  11. Bernd

    Bernd Registered

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    @Supa and @krusti Wouldn't you agree, that to force something, only makes sense if it gets forced for everybody? But when i, in case of the drivers view, read how easy it is for a VR user to workaround it, it makes no sense at all to force it.
    And especially if it really is the case that people that use bonnet or swingman cam are able to drive faster than in cockpit view, as Supa has said, it makes even less sense to force it.
    As said before, the only winners are the VR users then, because they can use every view that they prefer and you can not force them to use a specific view and also not check which view they use.
     
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  12. Ari Antero

    Ari Antero Registered

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    According Steam Hardware & Software Survey: July 2019 there are 0.89 % VR users but of course that %`s is bit higher in sim`s but they still are minority in gaming and I think most of the VR users are looking for the reality, not to stick they heads out side of the cockpit or sitting on the roof as Mister Bean in the pic below. image.jpg

     
  13. stonec

    stonec Member

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    I don't think this is the primary reason they enforce it, I think it's just to maintain some sort of realism. As has been stated in this thread, people can already use all sorts of different ways of enhancing the view like triple screens or VR, but I don't see much reason to think altering the viewpoint would bring any clear gains in lap time. You can even move the camera position within the cockpit to a great extent in rF2 and make it almost like bonnet cam in many cars.

    I think this topic is a bit similar as the speculation if better equipment makes you a faster driver. Most of the time the answer is no, the human brain is still the number one limiting factor and any better equipment on top of that like 144 Hz screens, triples, direct drive wheels, will add to comfort and immersion, but likely little in lap time. When I league raced regularly a couple of years ago many of the quickest alien drivers were still using really simple equipment like single screen and Logitech G27 wheel.
     
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  14. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I think Bernd's questions are pertinent, and cut to his point nicely. However, I don't think we should either aim to clamp down on any particular viewing method, or 'give up' and let everyone do whatever they want.

    VR, TrackIR, screens, can all be exploited (as far as I know) even with forced cockpit view on (hence one of Bernd's questions). Since alternative views can have real advantages (like getting above spray in the wet, having a better view of flat tracks and blind corners, potentially better view of distant cars and incidents) we should instead look to make forced cockpit view work at all times, and in a reasonable way.

    For me that means limit camera movement regardless of the means of camera control, and ensure there's enough movement to suit reasonable uses of a cockpit view.

    Arguing about whether other views shouldn't be driven because it's a sim, or because they offer an advantage, is beside the point when forcing cockpit view doesn't actually limit you to a cockpit view. But that doesn't mean we should abandon it - we just need it fixed.
     
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  15. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    But what if that gives them advantage?
    As league admins are concerned about potential cheaters they should prohibit VR, because you can never be sure if someone cheats.
     
  16. Bernd

    Bernd Registered

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    As you say, "I think most of the VR users are looking for the reality".
    But if you want to force people to use something specific, you can not work with "i think" or i "suppose" IMO.
    In the Past, when we started our league, we also started with "we suppose that nobody will try to cheat". but the reality was different unfortunately.

    @Lazza Sorry, i have to be a bit off topic now.
    That is interesting. Do you use a plugin for that?
    As far as i know, there is no possibility to prevent a user from joining a server when he uses a gamepad ,for example
     
  17. krusti

    krusti Registered

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    @Bernd as far i know there is no plugin and you can't prevent the use of a joypad/keyboard, but you can recognize the controller in use by checking the inputs in monitor view, in bottom left there are the gauges for the pedals, steering wheel an g forces. With a steering wheel and pedals the inputs are smooth and progressive, with a keyboard/joypad they are almost on/off and oscillates a lot, the car moves in a twitchy way also.
    Is up to the admin to allow him to take part or not then.
     
  18. Bernd

    Bernd Registered

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    I'm no expert, because i don't use gamepads.
    But i guess that there are gamepads with joysticks, where you can not see any difference in the behaviour of the displays that you have mentioned or how the car moves, compared with the use of a steering wheel.
    So it's a not 100% safe method to judge which controller is used, i would say.
     
  19. Ari Antero

    Ari Antero Registered

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    It is easy to suspect that someone is cheating but to prove that 100% is worse. I have also hosted and managed a few leagues and I don`believe you.:rolleyes:
    If somebody is cheating who are they really cheating ? Not me, they are cheating themselves and that is stupid if you ask from me.
    One other thing is that if you are cheating in games you are also cheating in real life and sooner or later you must pay for that ;)

    Off topic as usual, sorry guys :)
     
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  20. stonec

    stonec Member

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    Where there are sports, there are going to be cheaters, this is no different from sim racing than any other sports. The main esports events are often held as LAN events with controlled hardware, which thankfully eliminates this problem. Regarding gamepads, if gamepad racing was the fastest way, Mercedes would have found a way to mount buttons and a controller to Hamilton's car instead of pedals and wheel :).
     
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