Forced cockpit view - reasons?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Lazza, Aug 9, 2019.

  1. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Hi all,

    First: no judging of specific competitions or servers/admins. People can set whatever rules they want and it's not my place to challenge their decisions.

    I'm curious about what compels people to force cockpit view only.

    I get that generally people interested in sims like to drive from cockpit view. I'm one of those, and I've always sought out a cockpit view or the closest thing to it even when playing arcade racers.

    But I don't feel any need to limit everyone else to that same view. In the past I've seen people argue about unfair advantage in wheel to wheel racing because of better visibility, but ever since TrackIR I think that's not really been applicable.

    The other argument is visibility over crests, which I can see some merit in, though if seeing over a blind crest is letting you go faster you probably don't know the track very well yet.

    -

    Now, to illustrate why I think it has to come down to perceived advantage, here's another viewpoint: many people are happy to race against AI. Some people who race online also race against AI, and rF2 has obvious strengths (and weaknesses, no doubt) in this area that can make it rewarding. I personally don't get the same kick out of racing AI, and would rather run practice laps with 2 human cars than race with 20AI, but that's ok. My point here is that people like to race against other cars when there are other cars (obviously), and especially when AI are involved it obviously doesn't matter so much how those cars are being driven (AI don't even have eyes!) - if I have a good race against someone, I don't see what difference it makes whether they're using cockpit view or not. Back in rF1 I had good races against at least one person using keyboard to drive (I did, eventually, get to a level they couldn't reach with keyboard, but they beat the majority of players turning up to the public server).

    To take it to extremes, if I were driving the way I do and someone with very poor eyesight were driving on the same track via audio cues (trackside objects indicating overall track position, corner approach, etc) I don't see how I'd be affected. As long as they're driving the same physics as me, using basically the same control mechanisms, I think it's fine. In fact sometimes I wonder if certain controllers could potentially provide more advantage over me than a camera position ever could, but that's very dependent on specifics.

    There is a counterpoint to my above reasoning - I don't like racing against AI because I like to know someone's driving that car the same as I'm driving mine, there are no artificial advantages or mismatches. The way that someone's doing the driving could impact on how I feel about driving against them, though I honestly don't feel that is the case when it comes to driving view (I don't know that everyone I've raced against used a standard cockpit view - in fact now I think about it, some people I raced against for years I know didn't use standard views (I even helped facilitate it, via plugin), and it didn't bother me at all)

    -

    So, I'm curious. I think any real, sensible objection to non-cockpit-view has to come down to a competitive advantage concern. But if people have other views, I'd like to hear them.

    As far as competitive advantage goes, is there something I'm forgetting? Is it just about spatial awareness and track crests, or something else?

    On a technical standpoint regarding view, TrackIR has for years allowed people with it to easily look around and see where gaps are, or how close cars are (an argument I've heard in the past regarding cockpit view). These days VR allows the same thing but even better, and both methods can potentially allow for misuse in order to 'place' the cockpit camera nearly anywhere you might desire. I wrote a plugin allowing the same thing, but it doesn't require my plugin to do it - there are all sorts of macro programs and tricks you could use to do the same if you want, and people may have been for years. Triple screens, or very large screens, have allowed people to also see more around them, and adjustable FOV always has the potential to allow more vision.

    Finally, to reiterate, I respect people's desire to set these limits on their servers (though see above re workarounds). They won't affect me at all, either, so if that option keeps getting set then that's fine by me. But, let's say that option is stopping me racing against 2 more people than I otherwise might - what's the reason? What's the benefit to the rest of us to exclude those people?

    Cheers!
     
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  2. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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    Who cares... if someone can't adapt driving on cockpit it's their problem, of course the logic is driving on cockpit and it keeps the sense of "justice" in a league, where no one has any kind of advantage. When i first came into simracing cockpit made me a bit confused, but i adapted really quick so that's not a big problem, just practice and get used to!
     
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  3. Steve Olden

    Steve Olden Registered

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    non cockpit views have a slight advantage in the wet as they don't have to look thru rain and wipers, and can probably spot puddles easier (although with no aquaplaning that's not an issue here)

    wheel & cockpit view = Simracer, anything else = gamer
     
  4. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    VR should not be allowed as it gives advantage because of better depth perception.
    Triple screen setup on the other hand gives better side view and spatial awareness without distortion that comes on single screen and high FOV.

    VR or Triple screen setup = cheater
     
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  5. zaphman

    zaphman Registered

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    There's an issue for those building a "real" cockpit - with a physical dashboard, windshield, bonnet (maybe), etc., using some kind of projector(s) for visualization - with the screen(s) some meters away. Then, I believe, its more accurate to use a view from "in front" of you - from the bonnet, i.e. you already have the "physical" cockpit, no need for an extra, provided by the game.
     
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  6. VirusGR42

    VirusGR42 Registered

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    In theory cockpit view is forced in certain leagues because as Olden said in other views you don't have to see through rain and wipers and you can also spot puddles, but really how much advantage does that give? You can also do the same thing in cockpit just by going into the graphic settings and player.json file and then turn off anything that has to do with rain. On top of that most leagues don't even use rain so then we just end up with the only reason really being because it is a simulator and it is supposed to be as realistic as possible (which is a tad bit weird).
     
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  7. GrimDad

    GrimDad Registered

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    Because you drive cars sitting in the driver seat.
    Puts all drivers on a level playing field which makes people feel equal.

    I no longer care or run leagues but the above was why I used force cockpit view.
     
  8. TCLF

    TCLF Registered

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    the difference being, that it's not an unrealistic advantage. I still have to look through the same window, with the same a pillars blocking my view. It is not like you are placing yourself in an unrealistic position like the well known LFS only tires view, where you can place the wheels exactly where you want consistently by purposely making it unrealistic.

    This is actually a good point, but... How many people actually do this. Then narrow it down even further, how many do this and actually race competitive? I've only seen this at Atze's place, where all 12 rigs are exactly the same anyway. For the rest I've sat in Porsche's own simulator, where it was used to train actual drivers, not to race competitively. I haven't seen many, if any people that do this in their own living room.
     
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  9. davidporeilly

    davidporeilly Registered

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    For me it's about simulation. I want the closest possible thing to the real experience. So cockpit view, no assists except where used IRL.
    That being the case I want the same challenge for those I race against to keep it fair. I don't want to be looking through the screen and racing a "roof rider".
     
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  10. Corti

    Corti Registered

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    I guess the same goes for people we are used to driving on the left side. At first it costs a bit to adapt to the new position o_O
    And following with a little "philosophy" :rolleyes:, if in the cabin view we are on one side or on the other side, why do we have the monitor centered with the steering wheel?
    I also use the cabin view but the distance they offer me when moving the seats (limited) is not enough for me.:(
    and yes .... I use HeadTilt plugin. :D
     
  11. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    Spatial awareness in wingman view is greater than cockpit view, particularly with tintops. They can insert themselves into gaps that a cockpit driver can't spot. This plays out more in oval racing, where the packs are tighter.

    Perception of how the car handles is different when outside the cockpit, so I can't take a wingman driver's perceptions of physics as being accurate (just like a gamepad user's perceptions of physics are warped).
     
  12. 69Elwood

    69Elwood Registered

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    Administrator of a French league, we force the cockpit view for everyone.
    Not for questions of it's better like this or it's like that.
    Just on principle. We are on a simulation. to do simulation. So cockpit view. Because if not as much to make the arcade on Pcars or I do not know what!

    Sorry for my english google translation ....
     
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  13. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I lectured via Twitter Daniel Ricardo when his team posted a video of him setting a new track record at some track. But he was using the rollbar view to clearly see the outer edges of his tires and the edges of the track. I challenged him to put his butt in the seat and quit joyriding on the airbox. (never heard back from him, strangely enough....)
     
  14. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    But, as I said, there are already many other ways to 'gain advantage' over a stock single screen cockpit view, that don't involve other cameras or exotic camera positions. As Filip's post so eloquently states :p

    Again some posts are just "because sim", "for a level playing field" but not explaining how it is, or what difference it really makes. We might as well just argue about which colour is best if we can't explain the 'why'.

    People without FFB can turn their wheel faster. People with motion rigs can feel car movement potentially earlier than others can feel/see it. People with better systems can run higher and smoother fps which will help with perception and reaction times. People with higher resolution and bigger screens can see puddles etc better and earlier. People with vibration effects on their brake pedal can feel when they're locking up earlier. People running on-screen displays can 'see' lockups or traction loss earlier than others. These are all things that can make a tangible difference to performance, but the only way to control them is a LAN race with equal equipment - and you can force cockpit view then too, with no tricks available. (And if a competition were aiming to select a driver to work in a sim using cockpit view, it would seem a good candidate to force it - but more on that in a minute). Even people running telemetry like MoTeC can have an advantage over those that don't, but I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere (some level of effort, to be competitive, is probably expected).

    Wet weather has been mentioned a couple of times here, and indeed that's something I forgot about (as a mostly league racer, I didn't do much wet racing - several fundamental flaws in rF2's implementation took away the enjoyment). Regarding spray especially, running an external view could definitely be a big advantage in wet conditions, in terms of being able to see overall track position for braking and also to tell where other cars are. There were some complaints when Special Effects: Off didn't completely stop tyre spray etc, but I could fully understand that it's good to keep a level playing field and not be able to turn off spray. So that's something to consider for sure, though again there are probably ways to get around that even with a forced cockpit view.

    Driving in traffic, especially on ovals, I can see how there could be some advantage in seeing over the nearby cars, but it would be pretty minor.

    @TCLF and @davehenrie pillars aside (which I don't think really affect driving that much, in terms of track positioning or other cars), I don't see how being able to see your tyres really helps. You're always looking at least a couple of seconds ahead, 50-100m down the track, so being able to see exactly where your tyres are right now (more than you already 'see' in your mind, simply through experience) couldn't really be an advantage. If you were simulating a carpark and manoeuvring into position at low speed it would be a different story.

    @davidporeilly is cockpit view such a challenge? Someone driving a faster lap than me is driving a faster lap with the same physics, whether they're looking from the cockpit or the front bumper or from swingman view. I've tried swingman in arcade racers and I can't stand it, but I could probably adjust to it over time (same as someone can adjust the other way). In the end my driving won't change between views. (raw driving speed; as above, in racing I concede there can be advantages)


    And that leads me to a hypothetical: the WFG competition (part 1), which I think also included people playing mobile or console games that may allow other views, until it progressed and people were forced to use proper controls and cockpit view. Let's imagine that out there is someone playing games in their bedroom with fantastic speed and technical feeling for setups - but using a chase camera to do it. If they were able to turn up at McLaren HQ, jump in their sim and activate their favoured camera view, and were running faster, more consistent laptimes, with better technical feedback, it would favour McLaren to hire that person to help tune their race cars, wouldn't it? If they're never going to drive the real car, it really makes no difference how they do what they do in the sim - as long as what they're producing is of benefit and their controls are parallel to the real drivers. (the second WFG is different, from what I gather - an actual race seat is involved, so cockpit is the goal. But adjusting to cockpit view would still be easier than developing those skills for our hypothetical simmer)


    I drive from cockpit view because I want it to feel and look realistic. I agree that people can adjust to cockpit view if it's not what they currently use, and in the interests of immersion I think it's a good thing to do for enjoyment. I've been sympathetic towards those who want more extreme cockpit camera positions, but I think if they committed to a standard view they could learn to cope with it. It took me a week of driving (1-3 hours each day, so a decent amount of time) to properly adjust to a wheel with more rotation back when I upgraded from a Momo to a G25, and I could easily have just not changed and felt like I couldn't.

    -

    So, let's look at the other side of the coin. If we want to restrict driving views, let's do it properly. Let's make it so when the server admin says "Force cockpit view" the camera is actually limited to the normal seat range. VR? Still limited. Camera movement controls? limited. TrackIR? limited. Obviously I'm not proposing a limit on view angle, with VR especially that would be a jarring experience, but the position can have limitations. However, I think many current limits need a little expanding if it's going to be properly locked down. Ideally we'd all have our wheels in realistic position and the real one will cover the on-screen one, or be sitting nicely in front of the on-screen dashboard, but often that's not the case. The range of 'seat' movement available should reflect the fact this is still a game and people have limitations, but might want to make their view as realistic as possible anyway (which might mean moving the camera forward and/or up so the dash isn't visible, rather than lowering FOV and losing peripheral vision on track). Part of the reason we currently have workarounds is that the default ranges can be overly limited - even more recent ISI/S397 that have 'larger ranges'. But let's make it the same for everyone, too.

    Thoughts? :D
     
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  15. Bernd

    Bernd Registered

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    Only if everybody uses the exact same hardware, equipment and settings, things are even, except of the drivers skills.
    And because that will never happen under normal circumstances, these kind of discussions will always be conducted.
    To the forced cockpitview, i also would like to have other views being unlocked, to maybe get more participiants.
    The question is, if it makes sense to join competitions to try to win, when the first price for example is a contract as a test- or real driver for a real racing team, when you never ever want to use cockpitview in any case. ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
  16. tagada83

    tagada83 Registered

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    Many speak of additional theoretical performance depending on the view but never the comfort provided according to age and the visual perception that goes with it, depending on the view of each or the material. On all these points, we are never equal. I have never understood that many people want to impose their way of seeing things at any cost. This, making a mockery of the difficulties, even the handicaps of some players. Blinded that they are greedy for wanting to be ahead. Especially since, despite all the tests performed, it has never been proven that a different view than the cockpit was faster. Only VR seems to give an advantage because of a better perception. On the other hand, nobody talks about excluding this kind of material. Unless these people who want at all costs impose views play in VR?
    In short, as long as the games are not played in the same place, with the same equipment and the same age groups, there can be no fairness. So let people play as they please, and do not worry, these people are there to have fun, not to be faster than you ;).
     
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  17. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    Common explanation from people who believe that cockpit should be only view is that this is a sim and it's only realistic view.
    That argument doesn't hold water at all because there are:
    - virtual mirros
    - tyre temp widget
    - car damage display
    - trackmaps
    - delta widget
    - CrewChief
    - etc etc

    So if cockpit view is enforced then all HUD widgets and stuff should be forbidden because there is no place for them in a realistic sim.
    @69Elwood is the use of these unrealistic arcade stuff forbidden in your league?

    Another argument is that other views give you advantage.
    I doubt that any advantage can be gained with bonnet view which is beneficial for users that play on small 2D screens and simply cannot see enough road with lower FOV values.
     
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  18. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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    It's easy, if i set up a league it will be cockpit locked! You agree? Fine! You disagree? Go search somewhere else.

    Also, imo if you want to drive on bonnet or chase cam you better go play Need for Speed, Forza or Gran Turismo...
     
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  19. ADSTA

    ADSTA Registered

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    Without that info then it becomes less realistic.
    Because we don't have radio contact to an engineer and a motec display on our steering wheel we have to use other methods to get that info.
    So in fact, we can be handicapping ourselves by having more distractions or things to do like on the fly pit stop adjustments.
     
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  20. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    You said that in your first post. And people can play with those views in rF2, because it provides them. They don't need to drive those other games, and there's no reason they should just because you think the game shouldn't be played that way.

    We're actually having a discussion here, and I think there's information to be gained and utilised. Yours, not so much, so far.
     

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