Driving style difference between RF2 and Iracing?

[yusupov]

i think the thing about slip angle is pretty crucial (to my re-learning the game). for me (a 5 seconds off-pace guy, typically; it's probably always been more in rF2 but it's harder to know) it feels very wrong to be sliding in a modern formula car. i'm simply not fast enough that it happens in iR/AMS/AC unless i've made a mistake. in rF2 (i get the impression) the tires are both much more susceptible to & much more willing to sustain slip. so much that even going for a 5s off-pace lap (at least if that means pushing for you), you have to be ready to correct, & quickly.

at least the way it's transmitted, i feel it's severe enough compared to what i'm used to that i probably come off the throttle or brake, instead of driving through it.

so i'm hedging a bit on temps; it'd be nice to look at those in replay. i assumed that bc it's easy to notice the big spikes w/ the default GUI (impossible in iR, & even AMS, it think, shows tire temp differently -- would like to be corrected if i'm wrong). but i've always felt rF2 is both unique in its tire model & the most punishing of the sims. there's a learning curve to it (& was to iR, tho i think i've acclimated there) that i don't believe was similar to AMS or AC. and it's always been interesting to me that while iR & rF2 may have the steepest initial curves, the feel & tire behavior are a world apart.

 

[ebeninca]

You mean in rF2 or real life?
For rF2 that´s not true (at least not for some mods).

I mean rf2, normally i'm racing with touring cars, gt's and prototypes... every car i raced till now i can run with no wing. About open wheels i can't tell much.

 

[stonec]

Tires in rF2 seem to allow a large slip angle than some other sims, correct. I prefer it this way though than the other way. All of the rF1 based sims for instance made it impossible to "drift" the car as F1 drivers do for example on warmup lap, it wouldn't just let you keep car under control once you exceeded the limit. rF2 in this sense is big improvement over rF1. Also watching the McLaren WFG fastest laps, it doesn't seem like the quickest drivers are that much sideways. Here's the fastest lap of Zandvoort from Jeffrey Rietveld:

 

[Daniele Vidimari]

I mean rf2, normally i'm racing with touring cars, gt's and prototypes... every car i raced till now i can run with no wing. About open wheels i can't tell much.

And is far to be real IMO.
With P2 Enduracers mod i tried a couple of setups from some fast drivers in a endurance race in SPA (medium-high downforce required), and Jesus, they were running with 1 in front and 2 on rear, i was faster! This is not real, you can't be fast in SPA with no downforce.

 

[Will Mazeo]

Spa is medium downforce for a F1 car, for anything else I doubt they'd run high or even medium. Just remember WEC teams running very different downforce levels and getting the same result. In the end when you mess with aero you need to change everything else, if you manage to do same lap times on both high (or med) and low downforce in tracks like Spa, Silverstone then you are doing it right. I'd probably pick low DF for higher top speeds tho, it always end up being a better choice when fighitng other cars

 

[Rapala]

This is the main reason why the tyres melt,also because the claim tyres only cool through contact with the track,and not through air contacting the tyre.

Yeh the whole tires cool better through contact with track better than with air thing absolutely boggled my brain. That and the fact that so many IRacers were prepared to say that sounds like a good representation of reality.

 

[patchedupdemon]

And is far to be real IMO.
With P2 Enduracers mod i tried a couple of setups from some fast drivers in a endurance race in SPA (medium-high downforce required), and Jesus, they were running with 1 in front and 2 on rear, i was faster! This is not real, you can't be fast in SPA with no downforce.

I don't think you can judge a game based on mods,because the mods vary wildly,no disrespect to the modders,but you have to wonder what data they use to create those mods.
Side note,people in iracing run low downforce at spa,well the fastest guys do anyway

 

[Will Mazeo]

I don't think you can judge a game based on mods,because the mods vary wildly,no disrespect to the modders,but you have to wonder what data they use to create those mods.
Side note,people in iracing run low downforce at spa,well the fastest guys do anyway

Contact teams and they may help you. Back when we in EEC were using GTR2 we had Jeff Braum (at that time he worked with Level 5 Motorsports) heping to develop P2 physics, too bad we stayed in GTR2 those days, we should have gone to rFactor instead to use it properly and get feedback from his son, he even sent some telemetry graphics from the real car.
AFAIK Enduracers have more contact with real teams than we did

 

[PLAYLIFE]

Every simulator requires a specific driving style because the physics models are different. As per the OP, I am not an alien but a competent driver.

I am of the opinion that a lot of the speed differential between sims comes down to driving style adapting to the physics response. Expecting a specific response and knowing a specific response to an input is where much of the speed can be gained.

In iRacing I can feel my split second hesitations as I wait to see/feel/hear what the car will do when on the limit. In rF1 that I am very familiar with, I know instinctively what will happen and have reacted accordingly. I imagine this is continually happening through-out the lap and would explain a substantial portion of the time difference.

 

[Daniele Vidimari]

Very low downforce at Bathurst still plausible?

 

[stonec]

Contact teams and they may help you. Back when we in EEC were using GTR2 we had Jeff Braum (at that time he worked with Level 5 Motorsports) heping to develop P2 physics, too bad we stayed in GTR2 those days, we should have gone to rFactor instead to use it properly and get feedback from his son, he even sent some telemetry graphics from the real car.
AFAIK Enduracers have more contact with real teams than we did

Maybe they do, but they messed up inertia values big time in the Flat6 mod. Yaw/pitch inertia was roughly twice too high for a 1200 kg car, so I'd be cautious to judge rF2 physics based on any mods, even when they claim to be realistic. If the aero lift/drag ratio in the mod is wrong, then that will allow running minimum wings with the best possible lap time.

 

[Will Mazeo]

At Bathurst with all that pedal to the metal time per lap, why not? You go high DF in the mountain part just to be fast for a few seconds then everyone will pass you like a rocket after that


I have no idea how they messed up the inertia, then again I'm just saying: contact teams and you may find people that will help you. Look for people inside simracing community that works for real life teams, etc. For customer cars it's not impossible. For hundreds of milion dolars budget factory teams on the other hand... not even devs paying for a license get the data, if it was that easy I'd open a F1 team tomorrow lol

 

[ebeninca]

I don't think you can judge a game based on mods,because the mods vary wildly,no disrespect to the modders,but you have to wonder what data they use to create those mods.
Side note,people in iracing run low downforce at spa,well the fastest guys do anyway

Talking about iRacing, with AMG GT3 i was not able to run with the lowest downforce in Spa (-4 wing). Maybe with this new tire model.

What i'm trying to say is, for this WFG competition in Silverstone, I would definitely use Wing 1.

 

[patchedupdemon]

Talking about iRacing, with AMG GT3 i was not able to run with the lowest downforce in Spa (-4 wing). Maybe with this new tire model.

What i'm trying to say is, for this WFG competition in Silverstone, I would definitely use Wing 1.

With all of iracing gt3 and gte,lowest wing was the go to setting on every track,I don't know what the latest bop is,(balance of performance),or even if that's still the case though.

 

[Ef123]

I can't talk about iRacing, but in AC the tires are a bit more forgiving and you get away with more violent driving, that's atleast what I notice when I swap between the sims. My personal feeling for my style of driving is, that you get faster the more you wrestle the car around in AC as the consequences aren't that severe. In rF2 you have to watch your tire temps more etc. When you slide too much in one corner your tire temps will increase over the optimum range and affect the handling in the following corners considerably. At the end you will lose your momentum when overdriving the car simply by overheating the tyres. The same thing applies for lockups and wheelspins, though that shouldn't be too much of an issue with the McLaren. Allthough it is a good to keep some slip on the rear end of the car to help turing faster. So in that regard I would say that hard trail breaking is certainly possible in rF2 but you shouldn't overdo it. Prime example for this and where you can practice alot is Brooklands and Luffield.

thats exactly the opposite..

take the same gt3 car from ac and rf2. drive it right now, take a weird angle and loosen the rear. if its severe you wont be able to correct it in ac. even if you do it will snap the other way round. in rf2 you can correct it. i dont really know which one is more realistic, but I always hated ac when I lost the car like that.

rf2 is easier in that sense. iracing is totally the opposite, and ac stands in the middle of these. also in wfg competition i didnt notice much difference in car regardless of the tyre temperatures. except noticeably less grip with cold tyres.

 

[Amanda Santini]

Apparently Assetto Corsa's tyre model isn't too good

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198024419208/recommended/244210

I can say I feel this when driving in F1 cars, the front tyres just have no grip. In order to do 1:46 around SPA I'd have to do crazy things in Assetto Corsa; but on rF2 it's natural and to me, after comparing with real world videos, is correct.

 

[Daniele Vidimari]

@Ef123 But do not forget that mid-engine cars (or even worse the evil's car, the Porsche) are way to hard to correct vs a front-engine one. Indee i found the S397's Corvette very easy to correct than a Ferrari 488 from the Apex GT3, for example.

 

[green serpent]

Also watching the McLaren WFG fastest laps, it doesn't seem like the quickest drivers are that much sideways. Here's the fastest lap of Zandvoort from Jeffrey Rietveld:

I would have to disagree stonec. To me, he appears to be slightly drifting on the exit of almost every corner. He is not in opposite lock, but he is slightly countersteering with mild slip angle on most corners to my eyes.

 

[Ronnie]

i think the thing about slip angle is pretty crucial (to my re-learning the game). for me (a 5 seconds off-pace guy, typically; it's probably always been more in rF2 but it's harder to know) it feels very wrong to be sliding in a modern formula car. i'm simply not fast enough that it happens in iR/AMS/AC unless i've made a mistake. in rF2 (i get the impression) the tires are both much more susceptible to & much more willing to sustain slip. so much that even going for a 5s off-pace lap (at least if that means pushing for you), you have to be ready to correct, & quickly.

at least the way it's transmitted, i feel it's severe enough compared to what i'm used to that i probably come off the throttle or brake, instead of driving through it.

so i'm hedging a bit on temps; it'd be nice to look at those in replay. i assumed that bc it's easy to notice the big spikes w/ the default GUI (impossible in iR, & even AMS, it think, shows tire temp differently -- would like to be corrected if i'm wrong). but i've always felt rF2 is both unique in its tire model & the most punishing of the sims. there's a learning curve to it (& was to iR, tho i think i've acclimated there) that i don't believe was similar to AMS or AC. and it's always been interesting to me that while iR & rF2 may have the steepest initial curves, the feel & tire behavior are a world apart.

My impressions after many contacts with some cars in AC, iRacing and rF2 are that the main difference is "directness" of your inputs. Let me elaborate. After trying AC for some years now and trying out many versions of their tire model, with many cars it is a bit mixed bag for me, some are better, some worse but basically all of them give an impression of numb braking. That is the most disengaging feeling ever for you to feel in any sim. Like a wooden toy train with wooden tires and wooden brakes tries to slow down. You can see the speed going down but you feel like nothing is happening. Like I've said, very numb feeling. Then there is this problem of feeling that a car only wants to be driven in one certain way and then tire/brake temps also feeling like they have baked performance set into them. I know that's how some cars are like, it's like some cars shout this: "My way or the highway" type of thing where you either do things exactly how a car "tells" you to do it or you get nothing. It is a bit similar with iRacing with the cars I've tried. It's not that bad on most occasions, when it's below the limit. I just lack the feeling of being close to the edge (and once on edge, cars start to act bonkers usually. Have one slide in one corner and next few corners are borked, I guarantee you that). I've seen some people mentioning that the fastest way in iRacing is to not go to the limit. When I think about it, I must admit it is exactly like that in iRacing. You get the best results when you drive a car in very predefined way and never on the absolute limit, even on qualy lap. Another thing is not the best FFB, at least for my taste. Then we get to rF2 which is like Harry Potter's Berttie Bott's bean bag. You never know what you will get type of thing. Some cars are excellent. Some feel rushed, unpolished or simply broken. It is easily the least consistent sim that I own, car refinement-wise. But I prefer having that, that is a child that has it's tantrums but is a genius at math and expert piano player. What rF2 does exceptionally well is giving me the feeling of driving on the edge (ofc I get the best feeling from the cars that I adore the most therefore I drive them the most) and brake feel. No other sim gives you such organic brake feel like rFactor 2. This sim would the only reason for me to ever buy a 1000 $ pedal set in the future, I would never do that for any other sim. Period. To this day getting a lap or even a long stint as close to car's theoretical ability, cars like GT500 GTR, FR3.5, are enough for me to come back to rF2 from time to time just for them. To play around with these cars in offline mode. Adjust the setup even further, refine my inputs while driving them, find new natures of them that I haven't noticed before. It's not the same with USF2000 since I find this car a bit strange in some areas but purely judging on fun factor it is up there with the best. Such a grin-inspiring car . Newest McLaren I consider first major hiccup in recent history of 397. Hope it gets fixed and I think 397 knows what I'm talking about. Good luck, it may end up being my yet another favourite once it's up to the highest level.

 

[hitm4k3r]

thats exactly the opposite..

take the same gt3 car from ac and rf2. drive it right now, take a weird angle and loosen the rear. if its severe you wont be able to correct it in ac. even if you do it will snap the other way round. in rf2 you can correct it. i dont really know which one is more realistic, but I always hated ac when I lost the car like that.

rf2 is easier in that sense. iracing is totally the opposite, and ac stands in the middle of these. also in wfg competition i didnt notice much difference in car regardless of the tyre temperatures. except noticeably less grip with cold tyres.

Being able to counter spins or big slides has alot to do with how you feel of what the car is doing. In that regard I can agree with you for some cars to some extent. The McLaren for example has a wierd tendency to turn it's rearend under breaking in AC no matter what you do where the 650s in rF2 feels very stable and catchable. I can modulate the break alot better in rF2 wich enables me to do more precise trailbreaking with the car in rF2. But that's something that isn't caused by the car necessarily but by the FFB. In that regard rF2 feels a lot more direct wich gives me the chance to react in time where it would be most likely too late in AC. In essence though, both cars behave very similar, but the FFB is tricking my mind and makes it feel as if the 650s is on rails in rF2. There is alot of subjectivity involved in this discussion. What I allways find though when I swap between both sims that I can do quite violent stuff in AC especialy in the GT cars, wich is anything but smooth and should ruin my tires.

Edit: Ronnie basicly explained the same thing, so read his comment aswell .