Released Caterham Academy

[juanchioooo]

Ought to say that this track needs shaders updating or something - it’s another one that works fine offline but has the bleached out colours etc. online. We’d love to know why - but there’s an existing thread running elsewhere for that issue.

I'm not demanding as long as the layout is faithful, in addition to modifying the circuits I'm a loser, luckily we have something to ride with, and for the Mini and the caterhan I think that circuit is luxurious, thanks mate

 

[JamesB]

When you were mentioning 'number plates' I thought you meant the car # shown on the side. For instance the blue car with #59 on the side. What you are referring to actually, we would in the States would call them License Plates. Are there different terms for that item in different parts of the world?

Yes, in the UK they would certainly be referred to as number plates, not licence plates.

 

[davehenrie]

Regarding @Kelju_K 's comments about the difference between v1.00 & .05 Caterham, something just occurred to me. We've all seen the pace that S397 works at, while it has improved tremendously this year, I find it hard to believe they could just whip out a substantial tire/suspension change in one weekend.
Therefore I have come up with two possibilities: (Obviously accepting that I AM NOT a person qualified to be making pronouncements about what is or isn't correct.)

1. The original was broken and the corrections made were simple text edits to something like the suspension file numbers. Same kind of issue probably applied to the tires/fenders not being visible. An oversight.

2. There was plenty of internal discussion PRIOR to the release of the v1.00 and they had prepared a 2nd set of physics in case there was backlash. But that would entail they would know what our complaints would be since most of those arguments seem to have been addressed with v1.05.

3. Just had another thought for Kel, pretty much since FFB became a thing, users have argued over strong forces or weak AND have often resorted to setup changes to suit their preferences. It is nothing new.

 

[Seven Smiles]

When you were mentioning 'number plates' I thought you meant the car # shown on the side. For instance the blue car with #59 on the side. What you are referring to actually, we would in the States would call them License Plates. Are there different terms for that item in different parts of the world?

Yes, as said above. It’s a British car so they’re number plates And they’re fitted to the car when it’s new and never changed! Oh and you can tel the year of the car, YP69 is a 2019 car (so it's a bit odd it's in the 2021 Academy)registered in the second half of the year, between 1st September and 28/29th February; CA71 is a 2021 car (and the number wouldn’t be available until September).

By "porpoising" I meant that the front suspension is still but the rear is bouncing up and down (to put a number on it, 5 cm? Maybe less). I notice it under braking or if there’s a bump in the track. I have spent only a little time with it, 34 C and VR is not a combination I consider fun.

 

[Kelju_K]

OK. here are my second toughs of the ham, after driving it all day on different servers.

On fast tracks like CTMP it feels better, and not so nerfed.
Those 2 racecraft skills (i mentioned in my first post about the 1.05), being conscious about weight transfer, and not hurrying to stomp on the throttle too early. And getting your braking point right, are needed to make a solid lap on fast track.

Slower tracks you can still hammer the throttle down pretty much as soon as you stopped braking. Also on slower tracks you can save the car, and the corner rather late even if you botched the braking point.

I do have to say i have had much fun today with the car.
So i take my words back that much that it's not a mouth breather version of the 1.00.
It's still nerfed too much imo, as you need huge speeds for it to feel challenging.

Then about the caster... watching others drive, all day, i could see that most people had very nervous car on entries.
99% of the spins and losses of control happened on entry. (usually when still braking and initiating the turn in).
This is clear indication of too high caster.

So, insted of being a dick as usual, here is an alternative method for increasing the ffb feel, because you need to stop using the max caster. believe me, you do.

Using the canted ffb effects as an aid, but in a conservative way, so that they dont start to mask the steering colums effects (the real ffb), because very easily they do.
So here are the values in the controller file i have edited to let me have the caster value i need for the car to behave nicely, while still maintaining good amount of forces in my G27.

"Steering resistance coefficient":0.19996, (almost doubled the default, coefficient being slightly lower than saturation)
"Steering resistance saturation":0.19998,

"Steering spring coefficient":0.065, (about 11% of saturation)
"Steering spring saturation":0.625,

"Steering torque capability":3, ***

"Steering torque filter":2, (**or 3)
"Steering torque minimum":0.016, (**or 0.021)
"Steering torque zero-speed mult":0.2,

And optionally, slighly lowered sensitivity to avoid clipping:
"Steering torque sensitivity":0.965,

i use per vehicle multipliers (depending on grip level) of only 0.5-0.7. it gives solid center ffb, while still getting good information of the car behaviour.

These are for G27 with ffb streght set to 115% in the profiler
***(capability increased for the 115%)
**(depending on rubber level)
These propably wont work for other wheels, but you get the idea, hopefully...

Cheers.
Kel

 

[mantasisg]

I wish people paid more attention to stuff that matters such as handling and performance matching RL, instead of uuu me difficult, uu me don't feel force, it is not the same, I have too much biceps from 100% FFB challenge (giggles like low testosterone 30 years old with 13inch arms @ 28% body fat).

@Kelju_K Why would those be caster rules of thumb that you shared before ? As much as I know it could be that way, but not necessarily. It depends on quite a lot of things. I don't know for sure whats the exact effect of caster for weight distribution in Caterham, but perhaps most instability during braking for it is due to low weight, forward weight distribution and smallish engine that engine brakes more. And it is not that much unstable at braking and turn in to begin with, people just suck at driving at the limit. Heel and toe blips ? Throttle feathering to stabilize rear ? Steering into a slide ? You know - being actual pilot of an analog car at race speeds. True there is a possibility that more caster does some contribution to less ideal rear tires load distribution, I don't know. People should experiment with setups always, but I posted before "first world problems" meme template as response to guy who somehow found it an issue that doing clicks in a setup is unideal for him and even compared it to being same as moving sliders which is so ridiculous... Whats happening are we as a species regressing or what ?

Aside rules of thumb that doesn't tell anything about how stuff works, here is awesome take on caster and how it works:

 

[Kelju_K]

I wish people paid more attention to stuff that matters such as handling and performance matching RL, instead of uuu me difficult, uu me don't feel force, it is not the same, I have too much biceps from 100% FFB challenge (giggles like low testosterone 30 years old with 13inch arms @ 28% body fat).

@Kelju_K Why would those be caster rules of thumb that you shared before ? As much as I know it could be that way, but not necessarily. It depends on quite a lot of things. I don't know for sure whats the exact effect of caster for weight distribution in Caterham, but perhaps most instability during braking for it is due to low weight, forward weight distribution and smallish engine that engine brakes more. And it is not that much unstable at braking and turn in to begin with, people just suck at driving at the limit. Heel and toe blips ? Throttle feathering to stabilize rear ? Steering into a slide ? You know - being actual pilot of an analog car at race speeds. True there is a possibility that more caster does some contribution to less ideal rear tires load distribution, I don't know. People should experiment with setups always, but I posted before "first world problems" meme template as response to guy who somehow found it an issue that doing clicks in a setup is unideal for him and even compared it to being same as moving sliders which is so ridiculous... Whats happening are we as a species regressing or what ?

Aside rules of thumb that doesn't tell anything about how stuff works, here is awesome take on caster and how it works:

Increasing caster increases the jacking effect during cornering
Too much of caster makes the steering inputs "too effective" for transfering the weight so to speak.
The jacking effect can easily overload the outside rear corner. it can even make the inside rear corner lift up as a result. and it also makes the weight transfer "too fast" for the suspension to handle, especially when we have no dampers control for the car to even try to tame it.

And like i said, when i watched others driving, it was clear that the outside rear was overwhelmed, ( those who were on the same servers with me and kept spinning on corner entrys, you might recognize this behaviour ) and it induced very sudden loss of control and slide where the weight just stayed on that outside rear corner. It was the lowest corner of the car thru out the spin, and only returned to netural when the spin was over and the car stopped.
I was thinking when looking at almost everybody suffer from it, that they either have too much negative camber in front or too much caster.
And as caster increases camber gains, it turned me on the side of thinkin that just the caster is too much propably.
And knowing that the max caster has been shared as a ffb tweak it was pretty clear for me that it was if not all about it, at least mostly about it.

The rule of thumb was told to me by an ex race car driver, around 2007. i didnt have nearly as much understanding of these things back then. but the rule, has served me very well trough out the years, always. till this day. so just use the rule. its awesome

 

[green serpent]

@Kelju_K Why would those be caster rules of thumb that you shared before ? As much as I know it could be that way, but not necessarily. It depends on quite a lot of things.

I tend to agree with many things you say @mantasisg but for this one I think @Kelju_K made a great point about caster because for me what he said is self evident (at least in the rF2 sim world).
Yes many things about setup and load transfer effect how are car behaves in the areas mention, but specially talking about caster what he said rings true for me.

High caster is basically a steering geometry that is resisting turn in. This does not mean that the car will have less grip on turn in, it simply means it's resisting it, so it does make it a little harder for the driver to 'cut in' to the apex in a perfect smooth way. (High caster jacks up the front of the car on turn in giving more load to the front - think like a go-kart as the front raises when you turn).
Whereas a lower caster is not resisting the turn in as much, and throughout the corner the car tends to feel more as if it's on rails, almost like it's turning itself around the corner. I think if you want to be very fast, using a lower caster may not be easier at first, but once you understand that the car is actually helping you turn around the corner it kind of flips a switch in your head, as if the front tires are 'pulling' the car around the corner. (This is my perception anyway).

The benifits of high caster on corner exit are really self evident. It's simply easier to control oversteer with a high caster because the caster naturally is trying to straighten the car. This means that you can more confidently get on throttle mid corner,/corner exit because the car is more stable and predictable. It's much harder to control oversteer with a low caster settings because it obviously suggests less through the steering in regards to rear slip angle.

I'm not dismissing your comment wholesale, just pointing out with this specific thing that @Kelju_K's actually work pretty reliably in there actual application (again, in the sim world at least, but I can't see it being too different than RL).

 

[green serpent]

Does higher caster actually increase load on front tyres on turn in vs low caster, or am I just imagining this?

I could be totally and in reverse about the go kart example, but I think the main point stills holds true. But I guess a more stable car isn't necessarily a faster car.

 

[graveltrap]

I am really enjoying this car, its an absolute blast around the Nordschleife

One thing I have noticed is that the rev counter in the car seems to be out of calibration Vs the numbers displayed in the MFD. Anyone care to verify?

 

[mantasisg]

Increasing caster increases the jacking effect during cornering
Too much of caster makes the steering inputs "too effective" for transfering the weight so to speak.
The jacking effect can easily overload the outside rear corner. it can even make the inside rear corner lift up as a result. and it also makes the weight transfer "too fast" for the suspension to handle, especially when we have no dampers control for the car to even try to tame it.

And like i said, when i watched others driving, it was clear that the outside rear was overwhelmed, ( those who were on the same servers with me and kept spinning on corner entrys, you might recognize this behaviour ) and it induced very sudden loss of control and slide where the weight just stayed on that outside rear corner. It was the lowest corner of the car thru out the spin, and only returned to netural when the spin was over and the car stopped.
I was thinking when looking at almost everybody suffer from it, that they either have too much negative camber in front or too much caster.
And as caster increases camber gains, it turned me on the side of thinkin that just the caster is too much propably.
And knowing that the max caster has been shared as a ffb tweak it was pretty clear for me that it was if not all about it, at least mostly about it.

The rule of thumb was told to me by an ex race car driver, around 2007. i didnt have nearly as much understanding of these things back then. but the rule, has serverd me very well trough out the years, always. till this day. so just use the rule. its awesome

Well, perhaps it works often, it does make sense. Placebo/nocebo effects are also common, but all these effects you mentioned are legit and surely makes a difference. However, 6dgs of caster is still a little though, and 3degs is probably a minimum for any type of car, unless it doesn't even top above 110kph or something like it.

The outside tires will always be the most loaded during spins or any sporty turning, mostly because basic weight and load transfer caused by directions of where free movement of cars mass is being restricted and where it wants to go (outside of course, inertia). And obviously it can't get to neutral load till it keeps on moving and inertia effect ends. Certainly caster wedge effect adds up if a person who is spinning out doesn't even allow steering self aligning to work (let alone proactively steering into slide themselves) which is also heavily contributed by caster as it increases mechanical trail, so once car is oversteering the steer into a slide should help to equalize rear tires load, which is always ideal - to have them as equal as you can for most overall grip, but then a noob will 90% of time overcorrect and get a tankslapper which he deserves a lot for bottlenecking realism in simracing for everybody. It is problem, people are SO MUCH painfully noobs that they can't even detect visually yaw angle changes till point of no return, often also squeezing steering wheel with their obsession about FFB 100% billybroadbent challenges with imaginary 13inch biceps strength that they also restrict natural self alignment of a car which is a lot aided by caster, as everyone knows. This caster issue is probably insignificant, especially for longer wheelbase car that isn't a kart. It is just another thing to point away from personal responsibilities of sucking badly as a driver, even if it does indeed contribute tiny bit to their struggle somehow, ignoring the fact that there are many people capable of consistently driving numerous seconds faster per lap for whole race.

You are right though for suggesting noobs perhaps would benefit. But as they also loose some steering alignment response, they probably loose more at the end.

 

[mantasisg]

High caster is basically a steering geometry that is resisting turn in. This does not mean that the car will have less grip on turn in, it simply means it's resisting it, so it does make it a little harder for the driver to 'cut in' to the apex in a perfect smooth way. (High caster jacks up the front of the car on turn in giving more load to the front - think like a go-kart as the front raises when you turn).
Whereas a lower caster is not resisting the turn in as much, and throughout the corner the car tends to feel more as if it's on rails, almost like it's turning itself around the corner. I think if you want to be very fast, using a lower caster may not be easier at first, but once you understand that the car is actually helping you turn around the corner it kind of flips a switch in your head, as if the front tires are 'pulling' the car around the corner. (This is my perception anyway).

The benifits of high caster on corner exit are really self evident. It's simply easier to control oversteer with a high caster because the caster naturally is trying to straighten the car. This means that you can more confidently get on throttle mid corner,/corner exit because the car is more stable and predictable. It's much harder to control oversteer with a low caster settings because it obviously suggests less through the steering in regards to rear slip angle.

I'm not dismissing your comment wholesale, just pointing out with this specific thing that @Kelju_K's actually work pretty reliably in there actual application (again, in the sim world at least, but I can't see it being too different than RL).

Absolutely, but the funny thing is that people wants this resistance, they want to overcome the self alignment and feel that eagerness of geometry to straighten steering once they turning or once car is overturning. And then they reffer to it as "rear end FFB", shout out to gamermuscle. Advertised to the bone about how this FFB wheel is this and that, at the end they should better just lift some dumbells if they are so much missing resistance for their muscle fibers. Fast guys know to keep steering in the hands as free as it is possible, don't even squeeze it too hard.

To me favorite caster amount is when it is low enough to have just a tiny sense of steering getting lighter once understeering. Very much caster begins to feel a bit proactive in FFB, and I like to be proactive with steering myself. Thats not the case with many simracing guys, they talk about some imaginary "information" through steering, almost assuming they should not be responsible for half the stuff car is doing. And of course feel that little bit of force in those biceps.

I don't know exact numbers, but how much more wedge effect comes there from rising caster up from 3.5degs to 6degs in Caterham, I simply just don't know. Is it significant ? I am not sure. And car like Caterham oversteer into turn in as well, it is also helping to turn it faster if you are able to use some yaw moment to actually corner faster, which slow guys doesn't. So there is a point that they may be better with less caster. They would manage to suck at entry anyway, and then with less caster suck more at correcting the yaw angle, they would understeer more - get into snap oversteer anyway. Noob is like a device to discover any problem that is possible to have, they are human designed for that. Everyone was one, some stays one.

In short, noobs are completely cornered in their lack of skill, and sometimes ignorance. Everything will somehow backfire on them, as everything has a negative side, they should choose that negative which they can deal better with, and if they want stronger aligning force, they should get it.

 

[Kelju_K]

Absolutely, but the funny thing is that people wants this resistance, they want to overcome the self alignment and feel that eagerness of geometry to straighten steering once they turning or once car is overturning. And then they reffer to it as "rear end FFB", shout out to gamermuscle. Advertised to the bone about how this FFB wheel is this and that, at the end they should better just lift some dumbells if they are so much missing resistance for their muscle fibers. Fast guys know to keep steering in the hands as free as it is possible, don't even squeeze it too hard.

To me favorite caster amount is when it is low enough to have just a tiny sense of steering getting lighter once understeering. Very much caster begins to feel a bit proactive in FFB, and I like to be proactive with steering. Thats not the case with many simracing guys, they talk about some imaginary "information" through steering, almost assuming they should not be responsible for half the stuff car is doing. And of course feel that little bit of force in those biceps.

I don't know exact numbers, but how much more wedge effect comes there from rising caster up from 3.5degs to 6degs in Caterham, I simply just don't know. Is it significant ? I am not sure. And car like Caterham oversteer into turn in as well, it is also helping to turn it faster if you are able to use some yaw moment to actually corner faster, which slow guys doesn't. So there is a point that they may be better with less caster. They would manage to suck at entry anyway, and then with less caster suck more at correcting the yaw angle, they would understeer more - get into snap oversteer anyway. Noob is like a device to discover any problem that is possible to have, they are human designed for that.

In short, noobs are completely cornered in their lack of skill, and sometimes ignorance. Everything will somehow backfire on them, as everything has a negative side, they should choose that negative which they can deal better with, and if they want stronger aligning force, they should get it.

In my previous post i merely explained (rather poorly when i look at it now) how too high caster (usually together with too high negative camber) manifests it self.
in the video you posted he explains it briefly at 11:14. as the load on the inside tire increases, it has more traction (more support for the inertia of the car, like @green serpent said resisting the turn on the inside), this combined with the inside rear getting lighter, causes a sort of "whipping" effect of the rear weight to the outside (rear). more you have negative camber, more this effect intesifies (as the outside front dives lower). i dont know if im doing any better job at explaining this tbh..

But any case, this was obvious to me when i looked at people struggling on corner entries. as they got caught in the "whipping" effect when initiating the turn.
Obviously a lot is dependant of ones personal driving style, and to be honest, setup was not the only problem with those i saw struggling all the time..
But what is too much and what is too little?
I make a video tomorrow, i try to install the tiny pedal hud thingy, and put it next to the vehicle staus hud, so you can se my tire loads, steering and pedal inputs plus my ffb working. Then based on the car behaviour and hud(s) information, i want you to guess my caster setting
you will be surpriced, when i reveal it.

 

[dylbie]

@mantasisg What car do you drive every day in real life? How much experience do you have driving cars with no PAS?

I find it interesting that you dismiss the desire of people to have strong FFB like it's just some kind of macho thing. My first 3 cars had no power steering and there is nothing that I've experienced in sim racing that comes close to any of those. The third car I owned without power steering I still actually own (AW11) and I've still not found any mod with the same FFB detail, weight and strength that it has in real life, including my own mod I made.

Steering has weight, so it's not an odd thing to request or question if there is a complete lack of it.

In the cars I made for rF2 I never had much joy with the new rF2 steering system. Remember just because the data/numbers are correct, it might not equate to realism. If the numbers are 100% correct, and the feeling still isn't there, then it may point to a bigger issue with the core of the game and how it's interpreting that data.

 

[dylbie]

I also think that bumping the caster to max in the setup is a bodge fix to resolve the issue with FFB strength and isn't actually addressing the real issue.

Hopefully it's temporary until they can figure out what's going on with it.

 

[juanchioooo]

the high caster is for fast curves, that's why if you raise the steering wheel it gets harder, that is, the FBB, and the low caster for slow curves, that's why the FBB and the steering wheel look softer logically,... I think that You give more turns to the subject than it is...

 

[Lazza]

I'm just going to point out that 6 degrees of caster is/was available on v1.00. This isn't the only change, though it seems very unlikely anything other than the tyres were changed (by notes, and... just likelihood in terms of mistakes and time to evaluate adjustments).

Pretty much everyone will have both versions in their workshop folder, and making 1.00 available is as easy as moving the v1.05 rfcmp out of that workshop folder so the game uninstalls it (then put it back later to install).

 

[wrff.tiger@gmail]

I really don’t understand the criticism of this car. I really don’t notice much of a difference in handling from v1.00 to v1.05. The main thing is having the wheels in v1.05 makes all the difference as far as immersion in VR. I guess I’m not an experienced enough driver to notice the handling differences. To me it was great before and it’s great now. Imho the ai is great and produces some really fun racing. I’m sorry, I just don’t understand the criticism. This car was a homerun for studio-397! All involved should be proud of their work.

 

[green serpent]

I really don’t understand the criticism of this car. I really don’t notice much of a difference in handling from v1.00 to v1.05. The main thing is having the wheels in v1.05 makes all the difference as far as immersion in VR. I guess I’m not an experienced enough driver to notice the handling differences. To me it was great before and it’s great now. Imho the ai is great and produces some really fun racing. I’m sorry, I just don’t understand the criticism. This car was a homerun for studio-397! All involved should be proud of their work.

Because some of us are anal and have the desire to not only have a sim car that handles realistically, but also one that FEEL as close to the real car as possible. The two points above have a huge amount of cross over and effect each other profoundly, so ideally you want both close.

You are never going to achieve it with a low end wheel, but will a higher end wheel it starts becoming more achievable. My driving has drastically improved since trying to get my ffb feeling more like real strength. Like, I literally cannot explain how difficult some cars used to be for me, impossible/broken, now I'm pushing them at maximum attack with full confidence and they feel solid and stable.

But I agree, the car is GREAT, it just needs some tweaking if you're preference is for a car that literally feels real in the hands.

 

[Lazza]

"Steering torque capability":3, ***
...
***(capability increased for the 115%)

Pretty much off topic but bear in mind STC at 3 or 2.5 will make no difference in any car* in rF2. It has no effect until it's higher than the current car's nominal max torque (Caterham is 9.5Nm, with cornering forces around 5.5 on 6 deg caster).

The 115% could probably be its own discussion entirely, but if it feels good to you then job done


*except R/C and any sort of bicycle-wheeled contraption someone might mod for fun...


And just on FFB for people generally, the caterham doesn't clip like most S397 cars on 1.0 FFB Mult. You very well might get away with a Mult well above 1.0, so check the levels to get the most out of your wheel.