As simulators become more advanced will the cars become easer or harder to drive ?

He was also completely out of shape, it was the heat that got to him more than anything, not all of us are out of shape geeks.

 

I really enjoyed the Huttu video. Thanks for posting it.

Wow what a low key guy. As was said in the vid, very Kimi like. You know he was feeling a ton of pressure with the eyes of the sim (and real) racing world upon him.

 

A lot of us certainly are though.. dunno, maybe simracers are generally in slightly better shape than rest of gamers because we tend to like sports in general, but the average gamer nowadays can't run for 500meters without having heart attack

I at least ride mtb every day, dont think it would help me to sustain 3g though

 

Huttu also came from near the Arctic Circle, to Atlanta and 90 degrees F. I doubt many of us would respond much differently in the same situation. I really enjoyed the video, I could not believe how calm he was, haha, I would have pissed my pants the first time I felt the car getting even a little bit loose....

 

No Shi*t. The day after the thread gets closed he starts this one. Like we got your point, 33 pages of it. I dont understand why you want to keep this discussion going on and on and on?...

But whatever ill post my answer lol


If your talking compared to real life than of course racing for us should be harder. This is fact, plain and simple, not opinion, because unless there is something fudged in the physics or whatever to compensate for our lack of feeling behind a computer, then we will never feel 2 things:

- A. As much as we do in real life ( I like to use 70% as the amount of info we are missing)

- B. That 30% or so we DO feel in game, well we feel it much later (comparatively speaking) then we would in real life.

So we get wayyy less information, and the info we do get comes to us later than in real life. So of course with all these humungous dis-advantages (and trust me those 2 disadvantages or insanely huge when your approaching grip limits), it must always be harder in the most perfect God given sim for us simracers, than it is in real life, again unless there is some kind of physics compensation aka fudging to allow for all this lack and delay of feeling.

- C. (This isnt close to as big a deal as the above 2 points). Everything is soooo much harsher in real life, your getting beat up in the cockpit (literally), everything is vibrating, the sound and sense of speed are putting you into sensory overload (you have to try to tune them out as much as possible). I feel sorry for all the guys who insist on removing all the head shaking and vibrating effects in sims, yes in real life our brain and inner ear compensates for lets say 60%-70% of all the shaking, but although harder in our sims (because our brains and inner ear cant compensate as good) its still a MUCH more realistic overall experience to have those settings on, and on a decent amount. If I had to train a driver in a sim before they did it in the real world, I would definetely crank up some headshaking effects to give them the overall feeling and experience of real life, so that when they go do it in real life they are not blown away by how un-smooth, un-leiserly and un-easy going it all feels.



Just pretty much repeating what ive repeated in other threeads like these and this is obviously going to turn out like the last 33 page one that got closed yesterday lol.



We as simracers have an edge in things like:

- A. No fear/way less fear. Trust me, this makes a big difference, I dont mean completely scared to take a corner at any half decent speed, but the smaller things when you are pushing and approaching grip limits. I could get into another huge paragraph about the fear side and how it affects people, more than some seem to think, especially subtle ways when you are nearing grip limit areas, also it can even be a major contributor in wrongly affecting our judgement of a sims' physics, but I dont want to turn this into another argument lol.

- B. Comfort and customizability of the steering wheels, lock, the ffb settings to get the feel they like, shifters, pedals etc. all being much easier, light to press, completely adjustable in terms of sensitivity and deadzones. Light FFB, way too many people use a wayyyy too easy going granny ffb, because they like it nice, light and smooth. In real life it aint like this, although I understand our motors arent powerfull and good enough to do this in a proper way vs just cranking ffb levels, so the hardware itself is also one of the problems (other than peoples' own personal ffb settings)

- C. Although most people either dont know it (understandable), dont care, or dont want to admit it, well, plain and simply most people use an either too high or too high and pointed downward view in game than they do in real life (the pointed downward aka "horizon level" part isnt our fault because it cant be adjusted in most if not all sims unless you go in the actual files and start tinkering with them). Even many people that think they use a realistic view eye height level wise dont. Again, im talking in terms of eyepoint/eye height/seat height, and not FOV because we have to fudge on FOV with all the different monitors and how small they are compared to real life and all that stuff obviously.



But those are all little things for personal comfort, in terms of pure driving, much harder for us in the most perfect God given sim.

 

I think your post isn't incompatible with the OP, Spinelli. You are talking mainly about the differences betwen real life and sims, but the question is more (correct me if I am wrong) about the vehicle dynamics itself. We have some nice sims, yes, but we know their physics engines can still be improved, for example tires are still some kind of black art, and all sim companies are developing new (and different) tire models, that will become more advanced in some years with more experience, more computational power, etc. I think we should add also the hardware (steering wheel + pedals), they can be improved a lot.

Then, IF the physics really match 1:1 with the real car some day, will be it easier to drive? ... I'm not sure, I think the answer is as simple as "it will be more realistic"

 

I voted harder because the keyword is "Fast".

 

I agree

but I also I think simulators will generally get easer to drive for people that have an affinity for driving as they give the player more and more information and behave more and more consistently with more and more depth. That on-top of equipment improvements

Outside of physics things like decent sound , proper 3D, surround VR headsets will start to have a big impact on things.

In the next 20-30 years its possible that things like neural stimulation will start coming into games which will allow for good simulation of the sense of Gforces.

But before that I think there might be significant development in suites that might be able to convey allot with specific rumbles or pressure points using gass pockets there are already some super basic ones on the market now.

There is the point that if someone is bad at real driving , Then as simulators get more realistic they might find it harder and some people might happen to be more suited to more abstract simulators that come from the technological limitations.

I think in general flight simulators have become easer to fly even though the planes now exibit far more dynamics , I would say that the more reolistic RC helicopter games like Phoenix RC are allot esear to fly ( in the sense that everything is more predictable and responsive) than the erlear less advance software. So even though driving simulators are obviously different from flight simulators I would not be surprised to see similar parallels.

 

LOL deja vu anyone, same person same thread just with a slightly irrelevant poll to make it look different enough.

Simulators will always be harder due to lack of actual physical sensations felt via g-forces and all other little hints you get in a real car, you cant get close to unless in the greatest motion simulators with huge high res full FOV wraparound screens and highest tech controllers possible, even these are limited by the the simulation themselves and physical hardware capabilities.

Simulators are much easier to drive with no fear so overcoming the hardware limitations you can still learn to drive faster then you would dare in reality mostly through trial and error, when you make a mistake press reset and try again. In reality you either blow your session or end up in the hospital or morgue. Plus you will need to find a big pile of cash or someone willing to pay you enough money to give you another chance. Real driving is very expensive so there are limitations to how much practice you can get on any given track or in any given car, in a sim you can drive round and round for ever until you pretty much perfect it.

Learning real tracks you get much more physical feedback of how the car is going and can move your line around easier to deal with the conditions. In a real car driving on the limit is not only guided by your skill but having enough trust in a car that wont fail at the wrong time that could very easily lead to hospital or the end of your life.

Most sims are written to compensate a little for this lack of physical feedback with things such as exaggerated sounds, I get very little feedback in a real car via sound beyond the engine note to help with shift points. All other sounds are generally muffled by your helmet or overpowered by the engine noise, and you dont get much from sound in reality. Most of it is via your perception of motion and vibrations in the car or wheel.

The more accurate a sim will be then the more the lack of the physical aspect will be shown up, sensation of speed is much harder to gauge in a sim rather then in a real car and my lap-times in real cars are much more consistent then they are in any sim. Most of this can be overcome through practice and you can predict what the car will likely do in a sim but in reality even though you will get the same level of predictability after getting to know a car and track, you can also much better react to new obstacles as they are thrown at you with the extra feedback provided.

RF2 is far from hard to drive and this is all relative, if you drove well within your own talent limits making small improvements then you will find it easier then trying to go all out and be competitive with the fastest guys with no practice. As sims evolve closer to reality then real world skills will be more important rather then game skills in which you learn to exploit the limitations of the software.

But this is similar to real driving, if its too easy your not trying hard enough and if its too hard you are well beyond your level of talent in all forms of motorsport. If you know how to drive a real car it shouldn't be hard to drive a simulator, if you dont know how to drive a real race car then you will also struggle to drive a properly simulated one. This is the same the other way around but a real world driver will have more issues coming to terms with the lack of feedback the first time they try a simulator on limited hardware. Then a Good sim driver who may have the basics of driving a race car may be overcome by how physical the real thing can be, the reality will also hit and it will take them quite a while to gain enough confidence to truly push the car as they would in a sim.

I need to laugh at your last comparison James, seriously simulating a RC plane is so far from flying a real plane it makes me understand where your coming from lol. Im sure someone would have a much easier job simulating an RC car using the same RC controller then they would a full blown race car with proper car physics and controls. Someone that can drive a RC F1 car will have no clue how to drive a real one so you are so lost its funny lol. Same as someone that can fly an rc plane wouldn't know the first thing about doing the same in a real one as there is zero relationship between the 2.

Your the one that believes simulations are rubbish, then throw up an example of a great simulation that is so basic and is only simulating an RC aircraft . Using aircraft's as an example most pilots from reports I heard were amazed at how close the pre production A380 simulator was to the real aircraft once it was built. That simulator uses real world data and figures not theoretical models you were trying to say are so much better in your last thread. Simulation software has gone a long way forward and design concepts are tested in simulators before a real world model is built.

 

Ok, I'm going be REALLY opinionated here:
This is probably the stupidest poll question I've ever seen: trying to draw clear lines of black or white where there is nothing but gray. It is ABSOLUTELY NOT just a matter of becoming easier or harder. It entirely depends on which end of the spectrum the simulation is coming from. If a sim was easier before better/more/more accurate physical simulation (i.e. Codies, Gran Turismo, Forza, etc.), then it may very well become more difficult with better physical simulation (given the same exact inputs). Of course, if they change the input to match the simulation, then you may see no change at all. Conversely, if a sim tended to be more difficult to drive before adding more things to be calculated in the sim, then obviously, by definition, it will become easier.

Many people claim that rF2 seems to be almost exactly like rF1. That is not at all what I've experienced. Shortly after rF2 was released, I tried going back to the BMW F1 car in rF1, and couldn't turn a lap because it felt like it had absolutely ZERO feedback whatsoever. And before anyone says "well, that's not physics...that's force feedback", I'll just say that I don't see a difference--they should be linked. More things being actually simulated, means more things can be pumped into the FFB model and accounted for. Can't have any sort of realistic FFB if you don't simulate, to at least some extent, what the steering/front wheels are doing. Also, like I said in the last thread: the OTM Miata from iRacing, to me, was much easier to drive than the NTM Miata (by this, I mean, I could be more vigorous with my steering and throttle inputs).

To OP: Honestly, dude, do you even have a point to this poll/conversation, or are you just looking to stir things up and possibly get more attention for yourself?

 

I don't think that this will do anything constructive, especially as there is still option both missing, others have already explained why it is both and others have also noted how it is quite meaningless to beat dead horse, but maybe OP will learn to see how it is not about difficult or easy, but how there are so much more in it that such can't be said.

I think that this thread will end up same as previous one, 30+ pages of back and forth, then few individuals getting all emotional and thread gets then tucked away, problem is that there are not much more to be said than that what I posted on page one, because that kind of view angle is like looking mirror from edge/side and trying to judge if it is reflective object or not without seeing mirror in first place.

That is why I have recommended modding for OP before, to learn how things work, it also helps to understand much better why I claim things I claim in this post.

 

Its obvious the OP is finding RF2 hard or he wouldnt have made 2 threads on the topic. Some people find opening a child proof door hard and others dont, easy and hard is so relative to the individual nothing can ever be considered either for every person in general.

It reminds me of a comment an engineer gave me when I was developing a product for general public use, we did all we could to make it idiot proof. He simply said "If you make something idiot proof, god will just make a better idiot"

Im not calling anyone an idiot lol, just saying you cant generalise easy and hard in such a way. Especially with so many variables between people and the software or how it is used.

 

Hey, you are overdoing it.
Ive followed both threads, James has a point (which I dont agree at all, I think simulators MUST simulate as much they can, everything possible, whatever the cost in difficulty from users point, otherwise they are not simulators but TRANSLATORS),
but I cant see implying idiotic behaviour is relevant here.

 

Maybe that came across the wrong way sorry, Im trying to show how every person and every situation will see things differently. Trying to say that one thing may be easy for all or hard for all is just too general and why I didn't actually make a vote in the poll, it comes down to physical abilities, physical hardware, time spent behind the wheel (real cars or sims) setup used, ability to adjust setups or driving style to suit, how hard someone is pushing etc. etc. All this is even before you talk about the level of simulation so I dont see how you could possibly generalize that as sims improve they will get easier or harder to drive.

Some real cars are easier to drive then others and even the easiest will become tricky when pushing to the maximum. Fernando Alonso may find one car easy to drive yet Joe Bloe down the road would have no chance, same with Gregor Huttu and someone in a sim for the first time. Like I said I wasnt calling anyone an Idiot and its probably a bad example to use but just getting the basic point that everyone's abilities and experience will vary to such an extent the OP topic cant be answered IMHO.

I agree with you on the point that a simulator should simulate to the best possible level it can, be this to the detriment of users experience on limited hardware. Thats where driving aids can come in for those that need them, in a game based simulation though this line is much fuzzier then that as the developers still want average users to enjoy the game. As can be seen in the popularity of games vs sims with many more people playing games like the GT series I still like the approach that ISI is taking and trying to get as true a sim as they can produce.

Quite a few people have different views to me but I think these can either turn on some aids if they find it hard to drive or use a different game they may like more. There are plenty of alternatives and no need for some people trying to turn the few companies actually producing a more sim like experience into just another watered down game like most of the others already out there.

Just one more thing regarding my own rather stupidly worded post a couple above, in that example of a basic child proof door which should have a simple easy for adults, hard for children deisgn to it. This was impossible to classify as easy or hard for both and just because an adult couldn't work the door didn't make them an idiot or a child that could a genius, just that you couldn't possibly make something easy or hard for all as it was intended even if its a very simple thing in theory.

When you add the complexity of driving a car and then all the complexities of simulating driving this car the the way many people perceive the difficulty of the task is impossible to pigeon hole as black or white or easy and hard. I hope people can kind of understand my meaning of that and I am not trying to insult anyone in any way here, after re reading my post looking from a different pint of view I can see how somebody could misinterpret my meaning of that post.

 

Thanks for those of you that answered with interesting comments !

I have decided to simply ignore people/comments that are rude and don't want to contribute in a manor that's constructive or conducive to interesting conversation.

Because easy and hard are subjective terms I thought it was implied by the question that this was more about if people themselves would find simulators harder or easer.

I think the question is interesting especially the specific reasons as to why people believe what they do . The fact that half the people voted hard and half voted easy shows that its an area where people have different views , Its how and where these different views arise from is to me where the interest lies.


Personally I find RF2 stock content to be easer than the stock content in RF1 and I have found simulators for me have got progressively easer from the 90s to now , not just within the realm of driving simulators but , plane , helicopter and RC plane and helicopter.

As someone else pointed out the technological advancements in hardware also contribute significantly to making simulators easer. For me The g25 gives me significantly more control than my MOMO did and playing on a larger screen at a high frame rate makes seeing what I am doing far more clear than when I started out on a 15" CRT.


I have decided to stop using these forums other than to get files , submit the occasional video and help people that have a problem I have a solution to.

Though there are plenty of users that are polite offer interesting comments and links to materiel I would not have found otherwise. There are also 7 or so users that are simply aggressive and after stating there argument often times in a clear and concise way, when confronted by a contradictory view will resort to character assassination through sarcasm or outright name calling making conversation very dull and tiresome reducing threads into simple bickering.

Again I'd like to thank the users that linked to interesting things and provided interesting conversation even when views and opinions were at odds.

 

Don't let minority to get under your skin, just use ignore list, that solves problem nicely during times when some comments just are too much to take. Besides, how you can learn modding and making cars to behave to way you like if not using these forums? I can quarantee that it does open world of countless possibilities when one learns how to make car behave the way on has learned them to behave, fixing issues like FFB became no problem at all and one gets so much more from rF2 that after that looking back it is bit of wonder how previously it was possible to be happy with so little, that is what I have found out with modding.
But there is danger of actual driving becomes secondary

Now to that split view of easy and harder, I find that it must mean that sims are getting easier and harder, I think that most would of answere option both if that would of been available as that is what I have found and many others have found. This way I think poll gives out bit of false impression of opinions being split between the two options.