RFactor 2: Best overall physics in simracing... FR3.5: ATM, one of the worst sim-cars

Led, read the 2nd paragraph. You don't need numbers to see this.

It's like arguing about wether a trumpet and a piano sound the same or not and and not believing they're different sounding unless an engineer or scientist shows you a bunch of technical data. Come on, if you just try to open your mind you will surely see this.

Have you ever seen a video of a real-life car having oversteer? The car doesn't - or hardly - darts around the track like it does in game. Look at the 2nd phase of the two drifts in the preview video of the 80s BMW M3 mod; from what I remember, both corners were right-handers with one being from a front-end facing camera (great looking mod by the way - this has nohing to do with the mod or work of the modders which looks great ). Look at the Howston drift video Paul Loatman posted; it's littered with this issue (great driving skill by the way, and again, nothing to do with Paul or his beautiful video). Look at the countless quick oversteer-and-save moments of sooo many Formula 1 mod videos posted (many great car control moments, and again, nothing to do with the mods themselves).

At the end of the slide, the in-game car all-too-often has almost darted to halfway, or all the way, to the other side of the track because the original forward motion just ends too much and too quickly and therefore all the energy/momentum that remains is all going towards the direction the front-end points to, and with hardly any remaining in the original forward motion-direction to balance out the front-end turn-in arc - thus causing the extreme over-exaggerated arc, therefore causing a very sharp, front-end pointy, darty, vehicle-direction-arc to occur.

Just watch videos of all sorts of oversteer moments of all sorts of real-life cars (let alone driving them). Just look at the behavior dynamics going on (regarding this particular subject), they're light-years apart. They don't just dart to the other side of the track as if you literally manually decided yourself to turn the car. Look at drifting videos, road cars, Formula 1, onboard cam, external cam, etc. etc. They're light-years away from the game (in this specific area).

 

Do you have the physics engine code?

 

He is referring to motec data.

 

Spinelli would you allow me to suggest you not to mind anymore. It is not worth the breath mate. Some of these people believed that as example the first clio release was already realistic, and that car was the mother of broken dynamics.

You don't realise that even the mod is laughing about you while supporting arrogant and ignorant people. Just saying but it is not worth the breath.

I'm laughing as well but not about you.

 

Yes lots of ignorant people with their own real life experience and their own opinions. This thread really went downhill with the personal attacks. Calling people ignorant is the most blatant.

 

You feel called and personally attacked or is it just youre next mission to change the direction and let the next look bad. Cmon man it is not enough to deal with me.

 

Before being a simmer i'm an engineer, one of that strange people that actually design, build and operate very complex machines like F1 cars, wide body airliners, rockets, nucler and chemical plants.
I can assure you: I never believed my eyes only in my professional life nor i will start tonight.

I have also to add that, out of curiosity, yesterday evening i dowloaded the fr35 and did 10 laps at Estoril without any single spin.
This of course doesn't mean nothing, but just add fuel to my natural skepticism.

So please: demonstrate or evaporate.

Me too i will try to better investigate the question and if i find something interesting i will report.

"Adesso che sono cieco ci vedo di piu'"
(Quote from the movie "nuovo cinema paradiso" and the song "take the time" - Dream Theater)

 

Do you need the code of the universe to demonstrate that F=ma is valid for a car?
Galileo Galilei would not.

 

Did you think twice before writing this post?

Do you think that the OP who already wrote:

"People twisting those sort of technique descriptions around so much are in complete "wonderland", and just "spitting out" and twisting around what they read in order to defend the game's issues, or just don't really know what they're talking about."

needs more positive support to encourage his intolerance of people daring to differ with him?

Are you proud of your contribution to this discussion about RF2 physics and FR 3.5 in particular?

I wouldn't in your case.

 

@speed1, I drove the new skippy at Mountain Peak on a green track with cold tires, it didn't seem like anything was immediately wrong in my opinion, but you can watch my replays and decide for yourself.

With the regional version i was able to move the steering with quick left and right movements at speeds from about 30mph as long as i had a consistent amount of throttle applied, and from about 25mph and lower my throttle inputs didn't matter, i could pretty much do whatever i wanted and the car wasn't going to spin out of control. At 35+mph, you have to be careful of losing the rear, but as long as the FFB is setup correctly, it shouldn't be hard to correct for the slides and as long as you do that, even up to about 50mph i could still make quick left and right steering inputs, any faster and it's very easy to spin.

The national version was fairly similar except, it simply had more grip and felt like it, i could maintain grip with sudden left and right steering inputs up to around 35mph, and anything from about 30mph and lower and my throttle didn't matter. From about 40+mph you have to be a bit careful with your throttle and you have to correct for some slides. So the National feels like the same car with better tires.

A few times for each car, i brought their speed up to around 40mph then completely lifted from the throttle while turning quickly left and right, in that situation, it becomes a bit more difficult to control, the way the car rotated or slid didn't seem immediately unrealistic to me, and even after watching the replays a couple of times, it still doesn't.

I took both cars around the oval after the first test and did some big slides at high speeds to get a feel for the two car's relative slip angles, the National naturally has a smaller margin for sliding compared to the regional, otherwise, nothing felt out of place to me here either. I even spun both cars at the end of each video and the behavior of the cars from the TV cameras look very realistic, the front end doesn't have a huge impact on the directly of the car, the cars both maintained their direction of travel fairly consistently while considering that the front tires were moving around and therefore having some influence as they should.

It's not worth the effort to record and upload these as videos, so i'll just attach the replay files to this post and anyone can watch and see it for themselves with all of the steering and pedal data however they want.

National - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9wekbxGpXYaeDVjOGk4bjhFNjQ/view?usp=sharing
Regional - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9wekbxGpXYaUWlwci0teEpwZmM/view?usp=sharing

Like i said at the beginning of the thread, he's talking about whatever difference there is from reality and sim, about the momentum of the car as it's rotating. As if him saying something is wrong means he knows more than everyone else.

The fact is that this sim will never replicate reality, and when people who frequent these forums who should already know that the tire model is incomplete, start talking as if they're Dr. Manhattan with anger management issues and can see and know everything, and therefore everyone else is an oblivious moron is quite oxymoronic, if you ask me. From skimming through the last few pages, it seems most people are simply explaining what is happening in these videos, whether it's from the sim or real life. I'm only seeing a few fictitious claims from those few all knowing beings that claim something is certainly wrong and they're the only ones who can see what it is for certain.

I know someone who was one of the leading mathematicians behind the development of modern day three dimensional GPS systems, one of the most knowledgeable people i've ever met, who wouldn't presume to know as much as some certain people around here claim to know, since it's frankly not possible to know for certain, even if the tire model was complete.

As Empty Box said; this thread is gold.

Also, my last post here.

 

@Lgel

I think you are smart enough as an engineer to understand what my comment was intended for.

I really don't mind anymore Lgel. It is really nice to meet people like you but you are to late to the show. I wished to meet people like you earlyer before this specific people demolished my intrest and original Intention. Still nice to know you.

Paul L.

Thank you.

 

And who says that F=ma is all what you need to discover if there is something wrong or not giving the issues mentioned by some people in this thread?

 

I've been working in the IT industry professionally for 20 years. One thing I have learned is that the more you learn the more you realize you actually know very little.

 

And it would be nice to learn to respect other peoples profession and knowledge, or are you a master of motor vehicle technicians or an engineer in the automtive industry. I don't think so.

 

Irony.

 

Reality.

 

As Jim Carrel, i like harmony

 

Me and everyone else who isn't automatically agreeing with you without trying to analyze the topic.

Anyways, this morning I took the new version of the Skippy for a test drive and yeah, I could spin it if I rapidly went from %50 throttle to %0 at around 45mph. It took me several tries to kill off my instinctive tendency to open the wheel as I lifted. But at 45mph you can lift rapidly without spinning as long as you countersteer at the same time with the wheel just a veeeeeeeeery small amount. It didn't feel at all exaggerated to me. But my opinion clearly holds no value here because I am not laying out my real life driving resume on every post. There are a ton of people on this forum with real experience. They don't advertise it every post. Many of them don't even post here. We have a bunch of people in our league with real life experience (We have WEC LMP2 driver for example) giving feedback on our cars. If the sim was sooooo flawed I doubt rF2 would have so many real drivers.

And as I have said already, I'm not really saying the sim doesn't have room for improvements. Just compare the tires of rF1 to rF2. It used to be that once you broke loose it would spin and spin and spin.......... and spin until it hit a wall. Now the tires regrip (depending on the situation) and send the car shooting wherever it is pointed and now Spinelli is upset about that. Racing school 101, block your tires when you completely lose it so the car slides in a predictable way rather than regaining traction and going another direction and flying back across the track. When the new contact patch is finalized this thread may be completely useless. Also understand that engineers love a challenge. Terence (ISI's physics guy) will probably never be content with anything.

The hostility in this thread is ridiculous though.

 

this thread turned from "gold" to

 

You work at a speed shop driving customer cars on public roads. That doesn't make you an expert. I have a friend who ported cars at the collection in Miami. He's driven countless insanely expensive cars on public roads. He nearly ran a 996 up a curb messing around. He is older now with a real job and real track time now. But never did he consider himself an expert back then because he drove customer cars on public roads at 5/10ths.

Here is an example of an "engineer" in the automotive industry driving a customer car:
http://youtu.be/7kgK2DlEhZw?t=17m35s

BTW, I've driven this car on a road course. Turbo Ford GT that dynoed 1300HP. This car was built at a shop 1/2 mile down the street from my office.

speed1, you're not the only one around here with experience and connections. Your opinion doesn't trump everyone's.