RFactor 2: Best overall physics in simracing... FR3.5: ATM, one of the worst sim-cars

I don't get this behavior with other ISI cars, not to this extent. In the last clip above I was literally coasting but still had a hard time saving the car. As I see it, reasons could be

- Something odd with suspension of this car
- General physics flaw exposed by this car in particular (I find this unlikely, rF/rF2 engine has been developed for so long)
- Bad default setup (ISI default setup is what car manufacturer or series provide them so I find this unlikely)
- Bad driver (could be, but sim racers from one of the best league say FR3.5 is "undrivable" on Estoril with default setup)

 

Relativly high speeds following something that looks like a hot hatchback that got round fine...
And the skippys are hard on the throttle ? at how many revs ? looks like in the first half of the revs to me...

My understanding is that a cars pivot point is not the geometrical center of the car, but something to do with the front and rear grip and the forces in play.
For K Szczech's video, it seems to me he looses it on the wet white paint and gently regains grip all along, inertia bringing the rear around...

I do consider the FR3.5 default setup as hard, at the least... but ISI provided other setups for the car on it's information page " http://rfactor.net/web/rf2/cars/formula-renault-3-5-world-series-car/ "
All of it is there, included clear notes on what to expect from the car.

 

The FR 3.5 is quite particular, it doesn't have corner springs at the front, and the antiroll bars are insanely stiff. In other games like AC or even rF1, running that kind of ARB stiffness makes the car break physics, I wonder if that has something to do with the rF2 odd things.

 

Anyone already tried to do the same tests with previous versions of these cars and see if was not the chassis flex that are making they acting strange? Again, before this thread i only see good reviews about fr35 and skip barbers

 

It would really be enough to test the cold phase on a green track, steering middle fast left right should let you understand already the mystery but sadly it seems futile and the ignorance continues, the more people fight each other instead to listen and simply agree or not. Let ISI decide what is usefull, nonsense or not please. Put your message out and leave it there, nothing more simple as that.

 

These very stiff ARB settings are necessary, because the car has only one spring/damper unit at the front (Monoshock), so ARB has to absorb all roll-movemnt. With a classic two spring/damper configuration, roll forces of the chassis are absorbed by ARB and Spring.

Pro's of a Monoshock config: less weight, better aerodynamics.
Con's are: often difficult to setup.

 

I didn't think i would come back to this thread, but what exactly will happen on a green track as opposed to a rubbered-in track?

Just FYI, i drive on green tracks quite often just to get a better feel for a car since it'll naturally have less grip in those conditions, and nothing seems unrealistic to me in such conditions. I posted a video of the Howston G4 at the Nordschleife in the videos thread, and the first lap was on a completely green track, i also start from the parking lot so the tires are definitely cold as well. If you think the behavior of that car is unrealistic, then we just have to agree to disagree.

 

As I was lapping on this track with an other car, I took a spin in the FR 3.5.

With my default setup (close to default) I reproduced what you show on your video at each lap, the car been "very special" only in this corner.

With the setup from David O Reillly (RaceDepartment), is is much easier to correct even on cold tires, and with warm tires you can drive without having to corect an oversteer at each lap in this corner.

Cheers.

 

My latest experiences are just based on the skippy national on M.Peak in green, and what i'm of an opinion is just that the car leaves the impression on me of an imbalance in mechanical grip in the cold phase, or better it shows the mystery of the forwarded rotation center which seems partly a topic of this thread as well, and i actually just liked to let ISI know what experience with there software i had the let an mixed impression on me with the current skippy and the new track, but it is not the first time i had this feeling that the grip balance in cold green is strongly forwarded, and i think that it may could have an influence on the overall balance over the total bandwidth when it already is offset in cold.

The thing is not the offset in mechanical grip what can exist, but it is an extrem difference and you can make the car loose tracking on low-medium speed on the straight by steering middle fast in any direction, and it even don't needs much input, it even is enough to give the car a left right impuls, and it starts to float and slide at the rear. The rear tires simply show off zero lateral resistance in the cold phase at low to zero G's.

Ah and the green track i think is better to make use of the lowest grip level, so the difference is even stronger in the cold phase.

 

So you're saying the front has excessive grip in those conditions? I haven't driven the new Skippy on a green track, but i'll try it at a green ISI track to see what you mean. I just know that in good conditions those cars are very nice to drive, the National version is extremely stable and i feel like i can throw it around corners however i want. The Regional version reminds me of a Lancia Stratos kit car i once drove, it'll try to kill you from behind if you don't drive it properly, but is otherwise rewarding to drive, and in all honesty doesn't seem hugely difficult to drive in a technical sense. Like someone said in the Skippy thread, i was ready and expecting people to complain about how easy it is to drive now compared to the old one.

 

Yes, and everything else i don't disagree with, but i think it could be well possible that it is presented over the whole bandwidth, just not as strong as in the cold green phase.

 

There seems to be truth on both sides of this issue, as is often the case. So what do we agree on in this thread? Clearly there are open wheelers in real life that are extremely sensitive to throttle input changes-- lots of videos from Youtube that show that and both sides seem to agree on that fact. RF2 does a great job modelling sensitivity to throttle input-- which is another thing most of us agree on.

But, perhaps in a few, certain conditions it is too sensitive in RF2? That doesn't seem to be an extreme position. It is certainly one that I can nod my head to and say "yeah, I can believe that could be true". Maybe most people can.

The issue seems to be 1) how much of a problem is it and 2) are the developers looking into this as they work on continuously improving the sim?

Well question 1 is one place where we are divided. Some have a big beef, others don't see the issue or see it so rarely that they don't care. I am not sure any more argument will change the majority of perceptions on either side.

Question 2 seems to be an unknown. Tim, can you shed any light on it? Is this seen as a potential area that needs tweaking? If so, what priority is it? If not, can you share any rationale?

 

Maximum cornering speed has nothing to do with weight transfer, spinning does. For maximum cornering speed you shouldn't be transferring weight, it should be in the rear and not transferring anywhere as you should be smooth with steering and not decreasing throttle at all.

 

I chuckled.

 

I said cornering G, not speed. Weight transfer is related directly to lat/long G, track width, wheelbase and CoG.

 

I don't think you can make that assumption. I was hard on the throttle my first time in the car on the straights, that isn't the hard bit.

 

Bottoming out? Or I suppose this track could be lower poly and you're catching that with the car too.

 

Huh? You said "thing when it is driven way below that limit. Basically because it's what determines weight transfer (driving wise)..."

No, driving input determines weight transfer, not the limit (g force or grip). You transfer weight (via your inputs, not how close to the limit you are. If you drive at 5mph or 50mph or 135mph with an even amount of throttle and smooth steering, weight will not move from a rearwards position. Driving wise, G, etc, does not induce weight transfer, it induces weight (not the transfer of it, the moving of it, while driving - if you drove in a perfect circle, at the limit of grip, the weight would not move, it would be static on the outside of your circle, to the rear if you're under a stable amount of throttle). Unless you're counting the moments after you exceed maximum grip and the car begins to move in a different direction to previous momentum. But surely you would expect to have an effect to your exceeding maximum grip...

When you spin due to weight shifting, it's your fault. It was your driver inputs. Weight can't choose to shift when you are controlling it. Driving a racing car isn't about driving the car, it's about moving the weight in a safer way and balancing it.

 

Your driving will determinate the lateral/longitudinal Gs, and they are part of the equation that determines weight transfer. It's a simple equation, Google it. If you are driving way below the limit, you are generating less slip angles/slip ratios etc, therefore less lat/long Gs, therefore less weight transfer.

 

They are approaching the corners and going through them with good speed, you can see they are pushing unlike the skippy RF2 video where the guy has almost no speed, not asking hardly anything laterally from the tyres, hardly asking anything longitudinally from the tyres, nothing, he is literally babying the car slower than a warm-up lap and way, way, way too far from even approaching any sort of tyre limits.

Lifting at that speed shouldn't make the rear just start sliding around. If that was the case, the 75% of people who drive these school-type F2000s - who aren't racers and just people going for the experience (or an employee event) - would be literally spinning 15 times per session. Outlaps, laps following the instructor, straight-line downshifting drills, follow-the-leader laps where you are literally almost coasting around the track, etc. Oh, and slow in-laps at the end of the session/drill would just be absolutely littered with spins all over the place.

The days would be sheer and utter chaos; come on...Let's get real here.