Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by vittorio, Oct 21, 2019.
Can be any type of car. Like BMW M1 Procar or Ford Gt40 are historic tin top race cars.
I know the feeling. Towards the end of the school year in grade 10, I saw the text books for grades 11 and 12.
Let's look at some stats and do some maths... I've picked the month of September 2019 from Steam Charts as a comparison. I've also included if the titles have a focus on street cars or not, and also a percentage of 'players' vs 'rF2 players'.
Automobilista (no street cars at all) - 108 average players per day | -75% (relative to rF2 players)
RaceRoom (no street cars at all) - 312 average players per day | -27%
rFactor 2 (no focus on street cars) - 432 average players per day |
Project Cars 2 (small focus on street cars) - 939 average players per day | +117%
Assetto Corsa (large focus on street cars) - 1834 average players per day | +324%
Now for two games which are very focused on street cars, and pessimistically calculating that ONLY 1% of the total user-base are actively playing. (I realise that these are console focused - but where does the average sim racer start playing racing games?)
Gran Turismo Sport (huge focus on street cars) - 75,000 average players per day* | +17,261%
Forza (huge focus on street cars) - 100,000 average players per day* | +23,048%
*based on 1% of total user-base. I also realise the user-base of consoles is much higher with better availability, accessibility, promotion etc etc.
Now tell me, if you were a bank manager and you had the above figures in front of you(even just the top PC ones), and you were asked to invest in a simulator who had no intention of creating street cars, what would you do?
Assetto Corsa has 4x the user-base of rF2. I've already seen posts by people saying they (and their friends) are waiting for more street cars before they come over to rF2. That alone is significant, and also once you're hooked on rF2 it's difficult to return to AC. If only 25% of the AC users started playing rF2, then that is ~400 which is the same as the rF2 current users. So in one hit you've doubled your active user-base.
Now let's say that just 1% of Forza active players decide they want to drive street cars on a better sim and invest in better hardware, then that's still 1000 extra players which is over double the current user-base.
From a business point of view it makes perfect sense, and it makes me sad to read people so militantly against having street cars in the sim which would potentially boost and secure the financial stability and ultimately the future of the game.
The charts you wrote above mean zero for me and it's irrelevant the fact that they have "street cars"...
As you can see people play most what's EASY, ARCADE GAMES which purpose is mainly the fun! I bet the average age is around 12-17. As soon as the simulation or the difficulty increases the playerbase decreases, that has nothing to do with the existance of street cars or not...
You can put only race cars on console games and street cars only in simulations that the charts will remain the same or the gap will be even bigger...
Disclaimer of all the above...
I realise that maybe I'm wrong in assuming that 'game sales' and active user-base numbers are where the main revenues come from. If the main core of the business is made from eSports and actual endurance race teams paying to use the software commercially then I guess all of the above is inconsequential.
I agree with some of what you say, which is why I put the extra bits in about accessibility/availability.
But I disagree with the difficulty of the simulation. I find PC2 and AC more difficult to drive as I don't get the detail and granularity of FFB when the car is beyond the limit. Yet, they have more familiar/popular cars so appeal more to the younger generation and it shows - 4x the drivers (AC).
Also if a 12 year old playing an arcade game with a Ferrari F40 want's to step up a level and get more serious, where does he go? He goes to AC or PC2. I'd imagine that most users here and most sim racers in general started with arcade games on consoles when they were teenagers.
I started when I was 8 years old playing Crammond's Grand Prix on my brothers Amiga, but what really got me into racing games was Gran Turismo 4 on the PlayStation 2 when I was a teenager. And that's the exact people you want to target to create new users and boost the active player count.
If you focus solely on a core of 400 GT3 fans, I can't see how the business and the simulator is going to grow.
I would find it exciting to drive to the limit a Ferrari F40 type car, but exclusively in a very realistic simulation like rF2.
Driving a car, whatever it is, in Assetto Corsa or Project Cars 2, has no interest for me (fo me).
If the simulation also allows us to dream a little, it is good no ?
It doesn't hold raw stats, you can say anything...
Iracing 80k+ member 8k+ online simultaneously zero street cars!!
monthly subscription track and car very expensive!
I believe these factors are most important to attract lots of casual players:
- pretty graphics/presentation
- accessibility (ease of use)
- appealing content (variety of "hot" cars and tracks)
- gameplay (online/offline/carreer/achievements...)
- recommendations/reviews/user base
I would say graphics/presentation combined with appealing and rich content wrapped in ease of use package is crucial.
Good sounds won't hurt but probably not that important.
Believable physics and ffb won't help much. It could even repel casual players. Imagine them trying Skip Barber or Porsche Cup. Most of them will leave in frustration.
Maybe a game with race cars only could be selling hit but I doubt. To cater wide audience there should be variety of iconic world known cool cars that kids see in media and that includes lots of street cars (stuff like Fast nad Furious)
I knew that was coming! But honestly, Studio-397 would have years of work to do plus adding an even bigger monthly fee to think of competing with iRacing. And this based on a very niche market, which I don't think there is room for another iRacing type sim?
And there is only one example while the street car argument has a dozen or more.
So Studio-397 can try for a one off 80k market, which would mean years of upgrades and a monthly fee or go after the 100's of thousands k market by adding a dozen or so street car DLC?
This is basically my point in a single sentence
If Studio-397 want to attract more sales then adding a street car DLC I think is the easiest way. But if they just want to keep it a nice little sim, by all means, keep it the way it is.
I still can't believe how few people voted! That's the best argument for street cars right there.
This is like Brexit all over again!
we saw that there is no interest for the street cars, no need to come up with false arguments with other games....
Just don't complain about empty rooms and no UI update.
That's an incorrect statement. There is no interest for street cars IN THE CURRENT USER-BASE. A small niche user base which doesn't have much potential to grow.
You may be happy with that small number of users who are interested only in modern GT3 style cars.
I'm more interested in thinking of ways in which rFactor 2 can grow, appeal to more users with a wider interest. Ultimately create more revenue so they can employ more developers and resources who will get things like UI, AI, competition, simulated transmission and ambient effects finished quicker.
This isn't just about street cars. This is about a broader appeal and user base that street cars will bring.
Lets say it like this. Most of us are in our mid or late 30's or early 40's. Some older. Most of us will never sit in expensive luxury sports or super sports cars. Let alone in a race car! There remains only the realistic platform rFactor2.
We put on the VR helmet and dream of it: Aha, the car looks from the inside and that's the way it really is. Parade example here is the Porsche Cup and the NoS.
I dream of the Lambo Countach and the Ferrari 512T vs Porsche 969 (call it Giants of the 80's). I want to move these vehicles at the limit on the NoS with the rFactor2 (the hottest sim in the world) engine and physics.
I want to know how these Super cars feel and handle! I also follow the AC community. She is very interested in rFactor2. There is just no interesting offer for this community .
But what good is all the discussion? Ultimately, the business department of S397 decides! I would even support a crowdfunding for S397. So that the financial risk for the studio is not too big. I'm sure the thing would boom !
Maybe anyone will find results of my poll interesting
Results aren't exactly linear in terms of how old the cars are, but comes close to that, particularly 2000-2010 for some reason is not the most interesting decade apparently.
As amount of votes was accumulating, newer cars were gaining more lead realtively. I'll try to promote this poll somewhere again, even though simracers aren't interested in anything else than rigs.
Older cars apparently has less interest, so does road cars. It was predicted, but it was interesting to see whats the rate. Apparently road cars has something between 1/2 and 1/3 of interest that race cars has. And it doesn't mean that road cars aren't interesting for people. It means that about half of simracers would be happier with them, than without. The rest are probably people who doesn't care, and obviously some of them are road cars nazzi who hates them
I'm sure it'll be the biggest flop of all the dlc's! (and I'd love to see street cars 60's/70's!!)
Very interesting poll.
I think that the reason is that if someone likes the new cars, seem that it's more interesting to use the newest cars. Then the 2000-2010 are in the middle of newest and classic cars (considering the 90s as classic)
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