The Howston G4 and G6 are way under appreciated

Howstons were first cars with chassis flex.

 

+1 (g27).

If they had some other cars from the same period to race against they would be still more popular (Ferrari 312P, 512s, Porsche 906, 908, 910, 917, Ford GT40, etc.).

 

i wouldnt be shocked if they do. for all the great stuff weve gotten lately theyre still sitting on some gems. the cobra is just the first to be bequeathed

 

Old race cars in almost every simulation are set to 'wallow' about under power.
I don't even touch them.

 

Indeed. The majority expects the historic cars to drive like their modern counterparts.


There are a lot of really good cars in the rF2 virtual garage so the Howstons aren't anymore under appreciated than the Nissan GTR for example.

 

Yup, you're right. You should be able to get them to be "hairy" and slippery due to a ton of power and old, crappy suspension and tyres, but without wallowing around, or turning across the track way too much whenever you get rear slip. The problem are the physics engines as I tried to explain in my longer post in this thread (and in a huge thread a few months back). It just shows how far all the sims still have to go with their physics. At some point or another the issues affect any/every car but can be difficult to see or experience because the issues are much more easily experienced with these types of cars (Lola, tons of power, low grip, old tyre and suspension technology, etc.) and real quick reacting cars with not much tolerance (relatively speaking) over the limit like powerful open-wheelers.

 

Thanks, seems so long ago and so many other cars released since.

 

That Nissan is my favouite tin top and possibly my favourite RF2 car. If there was a league that ran 90 minute races in that car I dont think I would ever miss one.

Now I dont know if this will settle handling debates either way or not but here is a 1968 Lola T70 (the inspiration for the Howston)at the current Lemans circuit. Pay careful attention to conrner entry speeds and maximum lateral G. These cars ran cross ply tyres that were ctiing edge in 68 but tyres have come a long way as has aero.
Whatever your views on the Howston this is great video. Le Mans anyone?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jyg_O1Nh1DY

 

They wallow because cars of that era used very low spring rates compared to today. A decent setup takes care of the nasty behavior, but so many people try to use a setup that is too edgy. Work on the setup, work on driving skills (squee-eee-eeeze throttle & brake to allow suspension enough time to settle).

 

what do we mean by 'wallow'? does this have a specific meaning in car-speak or something? i thought saab was referring to the fact that they need to be driven so tenderly (wallowing around track) and/or bc the opposite approach is sliding/wallowing around. (and for me, whether this is true or not is yet another case of, no idea, but dont care all that much bc its fun)

 

Spinelli. Do you mean that the point around whitch car rotates when it starts to slide is wrong?

If you countersteer when car starts to slide car rotates around it's center of gravity. That means that cars front end moves closer to inside of the corner as the car rotates. This happens more strongly with rear heavy cars.

If you don't do any countersteering car rotates around front axle.

 

It's wrong in most sims, especially ISI's for almost 15 years now. Live for Speed, Driver's Republic, and possibly Netkar Pro did it the best, maybe even Richard Burns Rally but I can't remember for sure. It's easy to experience while driving, while watching external cam replays, with heavy cars, light, old, new, high grip, low grip, high CoG, low CoG, etc. etc.

When I turn on a video clip of any car, F1, historics, street-car sedans, sunshine, rain, etc. doesn't matter, I can see the difference within 2 minutes of watching any race on TV, let alone actually being in a car myself.

It's just wrong, and has been for many years. It screams "Wrong" into my face constantly as I drive or watch myself or others. The sliding action and force of travel (possibly bad choice of words) is just all gimped. Same with holding wheelspin during throttle modulation, it's gimped.

Still the best overall physics in simracing though, and definitely my favorite

 

I have noticed one thing though when looking at replays of mistakes like spinning. Even though I have my vsync off, high steady frames, no noticable input lag, etc etc, I still see on the replay that I'm not actually countersteering when the slide actually starts. The car starts to come out, and then a bit more, and THEN I see the front wheels react from my input. It may be just a fraction of a second, but I reckon thats why things sometimes feel pretty off when sliding. By the time I'm reacting, the car has picked up just enough momentum that the car doesn't just hop straight back on course.
If I can manage to preempt a slide, that's when I find things feel real sweet, and things look natural. But that is impossible to do all the time.

Now someone with 300fps and a bodnar wheel probably wouldn't notice it as much, but it's what I've always seen. IRL you would feel yourself approaching those limits, and feel the car starting to leave you. It's like in the sims, all we can do is just react once it has happened, and in most cases, reacting to what has already happened a fraction of a second before. Probably it's one of those things that will continue to cause issues for us.

The other line of thinking would be that surely after 15 years, they would have sussed out any crazy weird behavior in terms of the basics of driving...XD

 

Who says it's something basic? Applying all sorts of mathematical formulas and simulating how a thing as complex as an entire vehicle behaves in a videogame is not basic. And I've seen tons of videos with Bodnar wheels and all sorts of high framerates, it has nothing to do with that. Nothing to do with user input.

 

Ok, this is just an opinion matter anyway, seeing as that's what I have clearly seen whenever I've sat there and gone "WTF?? Why did it slide off like that?"
To me, issues with latency and the remoteness of us as drivers causing problems seems far more likely than the sims are wrong. No proper evidence, the same as you, just what I think.

When I said basic, I meant it as the fundamental parts of driving. We're talking about momentum, total grip, CoG/CoR type stuff when it comes to sliding. And yet the physics of the sim are at the level of simulating the belts in the carcass, the heat through them, their movement relative to each other. That's all I meant by that statement. You think the fundamentals of physics in racing would be well understood by now and implemented.

 

I think Spinelli means this:
http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.p...simracing-FR3-5-ATM-one-of-the-worst-sim-cars

 

I read the 1 part of Spinellis explanation. What you described sounded to me just normal behaving of rear heavy car. Maybe you was comparing it to behaving of front heavy car in real life.

I explain my view: Car wants to rotate around its center of gravity when it's drifting. In rear heavy car center of cravity is close to back end. When this kind of car rotates around its cog front end moves more that rear end. In front heavy cars like drifting cars back end moves more.

Also when tyre load increases its maximum grip moves to higher slip angles. That is why rear heavy car can have good grip even with high slip angles. And that is why rear heavy car chances well the directon of its velocity even when drifting.

 

The Howston driven by a virtuoso. 1966 Spa No assists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0KYVUullX8

and the couple of posts where we discus this cars handling,
http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/worried-about-the-future-of-rf2.83644/page-16#post-1821696

 

It's a physics thing with the ISI engine (and other engines as well) going back to at-least F12002.

I just watched F1 practice and noticed the massive difference within a few minutes, let alone 20 years of watching all sorts of racing, real-life racing, real-life street-car driving, etc. The motion and vehicle behaviour is completely different from any real-life slide. From F1 on a grippy track, to a sedan in the rain.

Sure, technically speaking it's just opinion, but when you can see a massive difference within 20 seconds of watching any racing Internet clip, let alone 20 years of video (TV), and real-life experience, then I'd like to think it should be taken a bit seriously,

Just watch any car clip from any racing series from any time period. Look at how a 90s F1 car slides, look at how much lock is applied, look at the direction of travel compared to the angle of rear-slide, and look/listen at/to the characteristics of the car/engine/steering/revs as the slide first initiates, as the initial correction happens, and as the return-steering-back-to-centre correction happens. It's completely different in real-life. Just totally different. Look at Alonso's massive slides in the 2012 Brazil GP. Actually, just look at any of the countless moments any driver/car gets wheelspin in any racing series, the difference can be spotted within "2 seconds" of flipping on your TV/website player.


Anyways, that's all I'm going to say about that; I don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into an overall physics argument/discussion. The Howstons are still GREAT fun to drive, especially when you get nice and accustomed to them and in the zone - not to mention after a bit of setup work - and will be even better once updated (atleast w/ updated contact patch model, and steering model).

 

Reading your posts is like listening a scratched record. There is actually no need to repeat the same concept in every thread, even multiple times per thread. I think every user of this forum know your position on this matter. You don't need to convince people you're right, just like you don't need to be convinced you're wrong. And I don't absolutely argue with the meaning of your mantra, is out of my capability and of my interest, but is just about : why today I read the same comments on several threads in this very forum? What I learn from reading always the same concepts?