Simulation - 10/10. Usability - 1/10.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by dylbie, Sep 9, 2019.

  1. Bernd

    Bernd Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2013
    Messages:
    895
    Likes Received:
    423
    I don't think that it works in that way.
    People sometimes make guesses, that are taken as reality from others then.
    Such things should be stated by the developers only. ;)
     
  2. Steve Olden

    Steve Olden Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    117

    iracing is NOT the most complex sim in terms of features? PC2 has more features than iRacing..AC with mods has more features than iRacing - hell even rF2 has more features than iRacing (not that they all work well)

    PC2 FFB does not have to be set per car. (PC1's did but this was changed due to SMS listening to their community)
    (IMO Jack Spade FFB is not the best PC2 FFB mod available)

    AC does have rain - and animated wipers, +full day/night cycle plus a whole load of other stuff couresy of Content Manager/Sol/Custom Shaders Patch

    in no other sim do I
    need to select my graphics card every time I start the game,
    move the mirrors for every car (and every livery of that same car!),
    not be able to set the date I want to race on??
    not know how many cars I can run on a track until the track is loading?
    have to pack and unpack files to change simple stuff.
    need to be some sort of genius to be able to paint a car.
    need to join a league to be able to do multiplayer.
    look severely anorexic when I play in VR.

    as everybody everywhere keeps on saying, rF2 has the best physics (and for many the best FFB), but in every other area other sims are equal if not better...

    At the end, if i analyze all the aspects of the software, what it can do and its flexibility, and i compare it to the others, i come to the conclusion that AC is the best for me.
     
    mr.Sw1tchblade, Bernardo and Mibrandt like this.
  3. Nielsen

    Nielsen Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    57
    You are ofcourse allowed to say so - if it makes you feel good.:)
    But if you are right then its a bit strange that you can find several threads exactly about this rF2 issue both in this forum - and outside.
    No reason to use time on your "almost impossible" and my "close to impossible".:cool:
    If you dont think it works that way - then I can tell you that open/closing files to/from RAM works exactly that way!
    I have a background in programming and managing databases and can tell you that if you are more than just a "superuser" then its extremely important that you have 100% check upon when you open a (database)file and when you edit and close it.
    But its even more important that you have check upon emptying the content of the file on HD after you have opened it into RAM.
    Because if content is left behind in the file on HD then you have absolutely no control of the final content in the file when you write the content from RAM back to HD/file and (hopefully) close the file.
    A lot of things can go wrong here - sometimes you end up with a file where the content can be read but is in some more or less random order - and sometimes the file is just corrupted and unreadable.
    Does that sounds familiar?
    Maybe.:cool:
    But at least Im not so authoritarian that I fold my hands and say its only the developers that has the right to say something in this area.
    Developers are just humans - hehe and sometimes they dont have a clue of whats actually going on.
    Because otherwise we would never see a program/game bug :D
     
  4. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    825
    Likes Received:
    625
    Emptying the content of the file on HD after you have opened it into RAM will create empty file so I don't understand what are you talking about?
     
  5. Nielsen

    Nielsen Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    57
    OK.
    No problem - with me.
    ThumbsUp
     
  6. Bernd

    Bernd Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2013
    Messages:
    895
    Likes Received:
    423
    My main doubt was, that files like the player.json stay "opened" in the ram, the whole time the game is running and will be saved from ram to the disk, when you close the game.
    I will do a test, to see if modifications in the game will be saved immediately into the player.json for example, on the disk or not.
    Or if maybe a tmp file gets created on the disk, like it is done for setup changes.
     
  7. Nielsen

    Nielsen Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    57
    @Bernd
    Your tmp file idea was my own solution back in my "database days".
    Because if something did go wrong while the content of the (data)file was transfered into RAM then it was urgent at the same time to have transfered (and saved) a copy of this into a file on HD.
    Because then it was pretty easy if/when an anomali happened to regain the orig data from this tmp file and compare it against the possible unsafe content in the file at stake.
     
  8. Bernd

    Bernd Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2013
    Messages:
    895
    Likes Received:
    423
    I have made a short test now and it really seems as if some files are loaded into the ram as long as rfactor is running, where also changes are saved then.
    And when you close the game, the files get saved to the disk.
    These are the files that are used in that way:
    bans.txt (probably)
    All Tracks & Cars.cch
    all_vehicles.ini
    Controller.JSON
    CustomPluginVariables.JSON
    FavoriteAndFixedSetups.gal
    Multiplayer.JSON
    player.JSON

    But i of course don't know how it is programmed, so i have no idea what could be the reason, that sometimes empty files get saved to the disk.
     
  9. Nielsen

    Nielsen Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    57
    Nice to see someone who is not only babbling what he think is going on - but also try to test it out.
    Thanks Bernd.:)

    If we take my description of the urgency of knowing exactly what happens with opened files serious - then we could both make a defensive guess whats happening with the opened files in your description if the game crash!
    Bum! No saving. No anything.:eek:

    Just some opened files where Windows probably have a default strategy of what to do with such "un-finished" files. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
  10. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    6,433
    Likes Received:
    2,346
    The player.json file is saved when the game exits (If the game crashes beforehand, any settings changes aren't saved) but that doesn't mean it's still open. In fact you can make changes and save it while the game is running, suggesting it's not open. Those changes then get overwritten on game exit. I think the same applies to most of those files - remember the usual advice when changing server settings etc: close the game first.

    The game will have all those settings in memory, loaded from the files, and will save them back to file at the end, but having the files constantly open would be an unusual way to do it.

    I still think this is by-the-by - the devs can worry about it. I just wish they made the game recover from this fairly rare situation gracefully, which they can do without working out exactly what's going wrong.
     
  11. Bernd

    Bernd Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2013
    Messages:
    895
    Likes Received:
    423
    @Nielsen Yes, only guessing what happens, don't helps to get things fixed. :)
    Unfortunately we are limited in case of the games programming code.

    Maybe it is a question of language barriers, but that is what i would describe with "the file is opened". :)

    What i also have seen is, that saving files happens the first time already, when you start the launcher and the game, even if no setting changes have been made.
    When the launcher is started:
    auto-subscribe.txt
    When rfactor 2 single player is started:
    cmpReport.txt
    Config_DX11.ini
    ServerUnlock.bin
    All Tracks & Cars.cch
    all_vehicles.ini
    Controller.JSON
    FavoriteAndFixedSetups.gal
    Multiplayer.JSON
    player.JSON

    So it seems to be the case, that files like the player.json or the controller.json, gets loaded to the memory and also immediately saved again to the disk, when you start the single player.
    What i think is a bit senseless, if a file that has been loaded gets immediately saved again.

    And there are also differences, if setting changes get saved to the disk, while you are in the game, or not.
    If i, for example, change a graphics setting like "refresh rate" it gets saved to the disk in the Config_DX11.ini file immediately, when i click apply changes.

    But when i, for example, change the setting "circuit details", it don't gets saved to the disk in the player.json immediately.

    Howsoever, i also think that to avoid that empty files get saved to the disk is a question of the way of the programming, in which way setting changes gets saved.
    At least an error message like "your xxx file is corrupted", would be helpful, if the game won't start, caused by empty json files.
     
  12. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    6,433
    Likes Received:
    2,346
    Could be :D

    What I read was that the files were opened and 'sitting in memory', then saved and closed when the game exits. A game crash is therefore done "with files open" and that causes (sometimes) an issue. I don't think that's completely correct.

    As with the player.JSON behaviour you've described, the game reads those files at startup, then doesn't touch the files (generally) until it exits. At that point it opens them again, writes values, and closes them.

    The rewriting you've referred to is likely just the process of the game verifying all the settings. If the user has edited a player.JSON setting to an invalid value, and that gets picked up and corrected during startup, writing out the file fresh at the end means the file now has the correct valid setting. In practice you could probably just do this on exit with the same results (unless some settings are actually re-read while the game is running; any I've wanted to change/read weren't :mad:). Either way, once startup is complete the game has read those files, rewritten any/all it sees fit for whatever reason, and from there the files are closed and the game is running from config values it's stored in memory (not a 'live copy' of the file on disk, but entirely separate values in memory).

    It's therefore very likely that any corruption caused by game crashing has to happen at fairly specific moments, when the game is actually touching those files again. Probably during the shutdown process, which would make sense given that my own corruption was (mostly, at least) related to my own plugin crashes, probably during their shutdown process.

    Most game crashes therefore shouldn't cause a file issue, because the files aren't involved. Exit crashes are a prime candidate.
     
  13. Nielsen

    Nielsen Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    57
    Your post just above here makes a lot of sense Lazza - likewise does your description:
    But the reason I think this rF2 issue has something to do with opening/reading and closing files is because IF your rather ideal description is correct then nothing bad would happen to these files if the game crashes.
    But quite honestly rF2 is the only game/program I have seen this "corruption"/emptying of file content happening.
    And as I have described the only occurence with similiar consequences I have witnessed was way back when I managed and programmed databases - and had to sharpen my mind of how to cope with any "parallelism" between file content on HD and the same content in RAM.
    If the database program crashed before a normal shutdown!

    Repetition: If rF2´s handling of reading and writing to the mentioned files is exactly as you describe then it would be almost impossible that one(or more) of those files again and again got its content "emptied".
    Hehe but Im not so stubborn that I rule out any anomaly happening at very specific moments in this idealised process:D
     
  14. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    825
    Likes Received:
    625
    Rf2 crashed several times on my side and never got corrupted files. This is a sufficient prove that files are not "open" all the time.
    My educated guess is the same as Lazza already stated that corruption occurs if game crashes at rare specific points while writing file to disk.
    Try this: launch rf2 and kill process externaly. Observe files
     
  15. Nielsen

    Nielsen Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    57
    @Filip
    I thought it was obvious that my post was a comment to Lazzas and partly to Bernds interresting posts.
    So I dont see any reason to waste time on your socalled "educated guess"ing.
    Furthermore you have allready expressed that you "don't understand what (Im) talking about?"

    So lets dont waste each others time - OK!
     
  16. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    825
    Likes Received:
    625
    Don't worry you're not wasting my time.
    I wasn't replying only to you, I was more confirming and agreeing with Lazza's comment.
    But now that you ask...

    First you stated "its close to impossible to crash this game WITHOUT the game does execute this self-corruption" which simply is not true.

    Then
    is wrong because Lazza explained how and when corruption likely occurs.

    Afterwards you use term "almost impossible" so it seems you changed your mind?
    Don't get me wrong, I really can't tell from your words what is your stance on this.
     
  17. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    976
    Likes Received:
    1,306
    I am waiting for UI not because I am crazy about getting better UI but because I wish it opens up developer ways to more important things. But the wait is getting weirder every month.

    There were numerous small but great software improvements through the year, not crazy much, but quite a bit, and they were nice. But no big stuff, nothing to say "wow". Everything what rF2 is great/good about will also wear of or get overtaken by rivals if it stays still. Physics are awesome, but there are plenty of details to discuss if you care.

    I wouldn't say that rF2 simulation is 10/10, IMO that would mean 1:1 with real life, that is obviously not the case because of several reasons such as issues with temperatures, strange low optimum pressure issue and more. rF2 physics simulation is 10/10 because it is the best ? Maybe, but still there are several things that other sims does better such as rain, dynamic tarmac and ambient temperatures influence for tire, some particular cars physics modeling...

    rF2 usability 1/10 ? Also disagree. Though it is most certainly low. Even though by now it is probably as high as it has ever been.

    So whats the issues with usability ?

    • Noobs may not get it as software is never perfectly adjusted immediately and takes more than three clicks to get most of rF2, strongest noobs survive and become advanced rF2 users, maybe new UI will help to survive few extra noobs.
    • Online racing fanatics just barely has any reason for rF2 except if they dig up some group and can adapt to the schedules, only simracers that doesn't need racing at random time for random duration are pleased (not to mention content preferences).
    • Graphics lovers are just too bugged by too much various rough details, just saying - good graphics obviously attracts people, some more than others, and those may not be in rF2 even though they would most definitely appreciate the simulation.
    • Audio lovers - they probably don't know that rF2 exists, just as rF2 doesn't know that audio exists :D
    • Modders use way less complex AC, even though it is also much lesser, but does have more candy. It makes sense to do a mod for AC at first and later convert for rF2. A lot of modders are using blender so it is quite a problem. Not only because you have to adapt to other software, but because then it is very very expensive, not to mention that time spent is already valuable.
    • Enthusiasts of any other types of cars than modern racing cars has little reason for rF2 also, although most people are into present and high end racing cars, a lot of people are also into various other cars or even variety itself. They just don't see a lot of reasons to get into rF2 either.
    • Single player guys using best AI in the genre still unhappy about certain details, so usability is there but not complete.
    • Physics freaks. Most definitely pleased, but as from personal perspective I would say that doubts are always there, there always seems that something is not as best as possibly could be. From software side, or even more likely from the particular cars physics integration side.

      I am myself a passionate online racer, but not very into leagues and getting devoted to it or a championship for every race and practicing for it for days. I am still a noob at some aspects, but I think I am advanced. Graphics to me are not ultimate, but really important rF2 sometimes truly impress me, but it also sometimes slaps me by looking very mediocore in some ways. Sound is almost as important, bad sound is a turnoff. I am passionate modder, I do think that rF2 modding is too complex, but there are many things which are also easier to me than in AC and more flexible, so modding in rF2 to me is about 50/50 comparing to AC. I am enthusiast of classic cars, everything 30s-late 90s, I see that this is quite a dead zone in case of S397, so thats unfortunate, all hopes for modding in this case. AI is just fine to me, but multiclass racing is awkward. Physics are best in the genre, I give 8/10 for physics.

      So out of these 8 points of usability in my case. Online - 1/10. Noob friendliness not a noob anymore but probably 3/10. Graphics - 5/10. Sound - 2/10. Modding - 5/10. Content selection 5/10. AI - 7/10. Physics - 8/10.
     
    mr.Sw1tchblade, Atsuki and dylbie like this.
  18. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    825
    Likes Received:
    625
    Sound 2/10? Bad joke?
    Sound can be very good and immersive on some mods and overall it is good.
     
  19. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    976
    Likes Received:
    1,306
    To me external sound - 0/10. Inboard sound 5/10. Ok that makes 2.5/10 to be fair. I only gave onboard sounds 5/10 instead of 4/10, because I remembered reverb effects from Longford track.
     
  20. DrivingFast

    DrivingFast Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,058
    Likes Received:
    606
    I am much more strict about AI.
    I would put something like 3/10.
    I think, however, that it would not take thousands of hours of development to achieve something like 6/10.

    For me the graphics engine is worth 6/10, the sound 4/10, noob friendliness 1/10, online 1/10, physics 7/10 (but the best of all sims, rain, realroad, clutch, temperatures and other things to improve), official S397 (not ISI) content quality 10/10 and quality content choice 5/10.

    What annoys me the most is the AI, the sound, driving on rain, I wish the realism is increased and more official car content S397.
     
    mantasisg likes this.

Share This Page