Sim Racing servo ffb systems : OSW & Bodnar

Can you provide more details on the Obutto? I've never heard such negativity regarding it. In-fact, I consistently hear that's it's built like a tank and one of the most solid and stable rigs around. On top of that, it's almost the only rig around that still allows you to use your PC comfortably for other types of gaming, work, general PC use, etc. I'd love to hear you go in-depth about your negative thoughts regarding the Obutto. I'm speaking specifically about the Revolution model not the Ozone. The Ozone is definitely not as solid as the Revo.

 

Different strokes for different folks Spin, I don't want to derail this thread. I think I explained well enough why it might appeal to some and not to others. At the end of the day it wasn't right for me.
My desk in my office is where I work on my PC so I don't need a rig that does double duty. I don't imply any offense to those who enjoy theirs nor to Chris. He is producing a product at a certain price point for a certain target market. He's a great guy, very nice, responds to emails, and I wish him success.

 

The FFB update rate wont have anything to do with driving the stepper motor, so if it is 60 or 1000 updates a second, that is not the rate that is used for controlling the current to the poles. The stepper motor driver will handle that at a hardware level and it is many, many times faster.

 

Bold statement #1) But it does in iRacing videos.

Bold statement #2) I completely agree


When I say "auto-correct" I mean how the steering wheel starts turning on it's own almost as if it's trying to correct the oversteer for you automatically. It happens in real-life, as you say, but not enough were you just let go off the wheel and have an open-wheel racecar correct itself without any driver intervention. A perfect example is the OSW video @ a skidpad, and the AF video w/ the Skippy @ Sebring. It's totally over-done.

The wheels should theoretically only be doing what the game is outputting and therefore telling the wheel to do so I'm thinking the software side must be the weak link in the chain - and therefore possibly an issue with iRacing itself - rather than a hardware issue. Or maybe the way FFB is done in games in general which, if I remember correctly, is all done wrong (read Leo Bodnar's document about it if you haven't) is actually the problem. Hmm....

The effect is realistic but just not at the precision and speed as in those videos. I've driven school-type F2000s a lot and you don't just completely let go of the wheel when the rear comes out and, voila, spin is saved. That's a joke. The car would almost certainly keep rotating into a full spin - just like you said (and seem to agree on) - unless the driver gave extra effort into the correction in order to sort of correct the wheel a little more than it would otherwise auto-correct on it's own in order to overcome and stop the rotation.

Can you please PM me then? Other than not liking the seat, I don't think you explained much at all. The only other thing you said seemed contradictory; it's solid but made out of Chinese scrapmetal? So it's actually not solid???

I'm quite picky when it comes to this stuff, not to mention it's quite a bit of money, therefore I'd appreciate it if you would PM me; I really need to know what you don't like about it besides the seat (which I'm sure is more comfortable than the kitchen table-chair with towels and a pillow that I currently use which makes my tailbone feel like it's going to break after an hour, lol!!).

 

The metal is plenty rigid, I was referring to the finish and quality. The open end tubing was rusted inside and the sealed tubes had pieces of metal (I guess) inside because you could hear crap moving around in there. The outside was also flithy but I was able to clean that up. I have no idea what this tubing is meant for but I do believe it is likely scrap pieces. It certainly isn't fresh and I've never seen any new building material at say Home Depot in that condition. Focus is spent on the outside and that was decent but by decent I mean cheap patio furniture powdercoat.

Some or perhaps many would be ok with it, or see nothing wrong with it, and for those, this is a good deal. I was disapponted the moment I started taking the incredibly dirty plastic wrap off the pieces. But for the price point I think Chris is trying give customers as much as possible. No one can fault him for that and he succeeds in doing it as the same setup will cost more anywhere else.

I understand being picky, my two cents, I think an Rseat (RS1) is likely your best option. VisionRacer VR3 is basically unresponsive these days and the Rseat looks like a better design. The seat alone is worth the price over the Obutto IMO. I went the JCL route because I want to use real race bits and have an extremely solid chassis for a servo wheel and a flat pedal mount that won't flex. I also want to position everything to be exactly like I need it. If I was going to use Fanatec gear or a T500 I'd likely go with an RS1.

 

I have seen Berney say that over at the iracing forums but I cant say I have ever felt the FFB being too different. I certainly dont remember any DD users talking about the FFB being different in the builds.

Berney made a statement that the OSW wheel is feeling better and the AF was feeling worse because of a build a few month back that changed the FFB, now they have to change the AF to compensate. Why did he only say this months later when the OSW was ahead in the reviews and if this was the case why didnt he make the changes months back when it was noticed?

I may be being hard on Berney but I think it is rubbish. I dont remember people talking about their wheels feeling different between the builds so either it didnt happen and this was a convenient excuse or it did happen and Berney is right but decided not to implement changes until he was forced to by the competition. Not a sign of wanting to be the best wheel if only the competition drove you to change months later.

Personally, I think it was number one, an excuse that was rolled out after the sim garage review..


Just to add, if it was happening then I guess all the extra signal processing done by the AF means that the AF was more impacted than the other wheels where the users didnt notice it, then again I dont remember any AF user complaining either..

 

If we need to add in friction and/or spring and/or damper to high-end wheels then doesn't that mean the sims aren't doing their job of modelling FFB to a fairly good level? Why are these over exaggerated, overly quick/powerful/snappy moments happening if - I'm assuming - the FFB settings are set to use only the game's FFB with no artificial stuff added in (e.g. spring, centering force, etc.) Or is this down to the fact that FFB is done by the game sending a torque-target to the wheel rather than a position (as Paul and Dr1 stated; Leo Bodnar was - if I recall correctly - also saying this in his document).

It's just disappointing to see that in a situation where the wheel is finally not the limiting factor (e.g. OSW) that the wheel is still doing unrealistic stuff and therefore needs control panel FFB settings tinkering in order to "feel" right and behave more realistically.

 

That was Leo Bodnar, not Niels.

 

Thanks, posts edited.

 

Thats it in a nutshell really, if you like it then that is all that matters.

I know there are people saying you dont need anymore but it is clear from the iracing forum that this is what people want. Berney has said outright on the iracing forums that they got it wrong, they asked people who didnt know, who had never tried the wheels what was more important to them and more force was not the top priority. Now people have tried more force it adds to the immersion for them and thats what kicked off the more force options for the AF.

I know that some people, still the holdouts that have never tried more force say it is enough, but it is hard to argue that every single person to try another DD wheel has agreed that it makes the experience better. Here is a long well thought out comparison written down from an AF owner that tried the other. He probably posted it in the simx forum as well. He tried it with the expensive OSW option but everyone that has tried the $1200 option felt the same.


TL;DR: The ranking order in Barry's review is correct!


Today, Naid, who was one of the reviewers in Barry's review, let me have a go at his 20Nm OSW Lenze wheel. I also brought my AF with me...tools, cables, setups, profiles, and even my racing gloves. That's right, no excuses.


First, and I think this is important.

Naid's Lenze OSW, as tested is a ~$4000 package.
AF Pro, as tested is a $1800 package.

Right off the bat, I'll answer the big questions:

1. Was Barry's review correct, and did the AF indeed fall last in the comparison against an OSW and Bodnar?
2. Was the AF misrepresented and tuned improperly?

The answers to both of those questions based on my personal experience is YES!

I am confident, that if I were one of the reviewers there that day, I too would have probably put those wheels in that order, and while I did not try the Bodnar, I can tell you that the AF would have come last. Naid confirmed for me that the differences between the OSW and Bodnar were marginal. He actually had the Bodnar and showed it to me, just no cables for it, so I wasn't able to try it today. Considering the wide array of hardware he had and the ridiculous D-box motion simulator, and that he knew everything inside and out, and because he is also a very highly qualified technologist, I took his word for it. The difference between the OSW Lenze and AF however, was *NOT* marginal. It was very noticeable for sure.

I was able to provide a tune for the AF which Naid drove with. His feedback confirmed to me that what he experienced at Barry's was most probably clipping and over saturation of certain effects, which made the wheel feel dull in certain scenarios. With my tune, no detail was lost according to his feedback. However, that wasn't enough.



Now, let's explain this seemingly shocking confirmation in more detail for current and potential AF/OSW/Bodnar owners.
The reason why the AF falls short in this comparison is because it simply doesn't have enough power. Period. That's all. It's the only reason, and it turned out to be a pretty big reason.

Does that make it a bad wheel? Certainly not. That's like saying the CSW or the G25 are terrible wheels because they don't generate enough torque.

The AF tuned properly is capable of delivering detail and information in any scenario in the game, as long as there is enough available torque bandwidth. Even tuned properly, and even with the new responsive mode, the AF did not even come close to the torque output of the Lenze, which was 15-20Nm, depending on how its configured.

Why was torque the deciding factor?
Because when you jump a curb at 150mph in the Lotus 79, your Jimmies are so rustled, you swear you were there. That in itself is what distinguished the AF from all other wheels and put it in a league of its own. Also, because you get a much more dynamic range in the types of forces you experience on the track. If you want a proper "experience" driving the DW12 at Long Beach, the AF cannot deliver it as well as the Lenze. That extra headroom in torque is actually quite extra. Is that true for all cars and series? Absolutely not. The AF covers the majority of the cases perfectly fine. However, it won't disorient you if you misjudge and hop a tall curb... or deliver a noticeable level of feedback if you hit a curb while under full tire load. With the higher torque, curbs become a thing you have to respect. That in itself puts a bit of fear into you and drives the immersion up.

Let me illustrate on a relative scale where the wheels fall into in terms of being able to feel the torque:

G25 --> CSW --> CSWv2 -------------> AF ------------>(Bodnar?) --> Lenze



Most cars don't generate that much torque, so why is the extra torque needed?
While all of these wheels operate well below their range 70-80% of the time (confirmed with telemetry many times many posts ago), when you get into those situations in certain cars where the forces get on the higher end, with extra torque, and we're talking additional 10Nm of torque here, give you a much more immersive picture of what the car is doing under load and what the corner actually feels like at speed as if you were experiencing g-forces.



What about the AF tuning capabilities and its new responsive mode?
Even with all of the tuning in the world, and the increased responsive mode, the AF wasn't able to match the torque of the Lenze. Especially when hopping over curbs and all of that. Also, despite the AF giving much detail, it didn't deliver some of the nuances present in torque differences toward the higher end of its power (it was tuned properly, trust me! The only person who can tune the wheel more correctly is Berney himself, and only because he can change the source code. ) Kind of like when there is a camber change, or the wheels alter their grip under load. Not that it doesn't deliver, just that with higher torque, those nuances are more pronounces as there is more torque to differentiate.

However, the AF's tuning capabilities are unmatched by any wheel. Within its available torque, the tuning capabilities allow you to completely alter its behavior and really dial out most things you don't like. Ok, you can't dial in more torque, we went over this, but you can tweak everything from noise, smoothness, inertia, dynamic oscillations, to additional effects from game physics, or even override a game's FFB completely! You can even mess with the torque equalization!!! The list of tuning capabilities is crazy and impressive.

What the new responsive mode did was just intensified the overall delivery of what the AF can deliver. What it doesn't do is add more torque.

Oscillations ARE an issue with the high torque wheels. Are they a deal braker? No.... or at least if you don't drive with one hand on top of the wheel with your chair reclined and drive real slow blasting hip hop music. There are things in these wheels you may not like that you may not be able to tune out period, whereas with the AF you can.

For example. You cannot modify the clarity or chattiness of the higher end torque wheels. With the AF, you can really change how certain forces and effects are delivered. With the Lenze specifically, the small detailed forces were rather muted, however still present and detailed, but smoother.

Imagine that the FFB delivered looked like a sinewave. Imagine that with the AF, you can modify the frequency, how close the peaks are together, and how sharp or dull they can be. What you can't modify in the AF is how tall they are, and that's torque.



More torque yields less detail though, right?
No. That's bull****, and don't let anyone convince you otherwise with "science". What is proven in theory, and which may be true if you paid enough attention in math class to verify it, is actually not felt in reality. The Lenze, which I tested at 19 Amps, did not suffer from ANY detail loss. Going over the high frequency curbs at Zolder produce crystal clear feedback. Nor did it suffer from being able to feel nuances of forces which slowly ramp up as you drive over big humped curbs at 2mph.

But the AF features a 2000Hz super duper encoder/decoder, and the others don't, so why do they produce detail that is just as good as the AF's detail?
I guess maybe you don't need big numbers to feel small bumps. I don't know. All I know is that the only difference between the ability in being able to feel detail is that with the AF you can tune that feel, and with the other wheels you can't.



Whoah, whoah, whoah. If the AccuForce's tuning capabilities are so dope, why isn't that enough to make it a better wheel?
Depends on what you understand from better. I had a more enjoyable and immersive experience with the higher torque wheel. In addition to that, we didn't spend any significant time fine tuning the feedback from the other wheels. It just worked. Out of the box. Like magic. With the AF, I had to get my degree in engineering first, figure out what all the options do, and start messing around until I dialed out a bunch of stuff I didn't like.

As far as a user's experience is concerned, the fact that the Lenze just worked, delivered detail and offered much higher torque variation and as a result more immersive experience, made it a more enjoyable wheel than the AF.

The AF's tuning capabilities did not increase the immersion factor of the simulation, but the added torque of the Lenze certainly did. Torque FTW!



I'm not satisfied with your analysis on detail, please explain further...
The AF is capable of delivering very chatty and high frequency details. With the Lenze, the details were much smoother and more muted. They were definitely not as jolting as in the AF. The kind of detail we're talking about is, being able to feel road seams, road texture, small bumps, and the ruble strips over curbs. The ability of the AF to relate that information and in a way where in the way they're being related can actually be customized, is simply not possible with the Lenze. However, that doesn't mean that those details weren't felt or didn't come through in the Lenze. Yes, that's a huge advantage for the AF, but at the end of the day, the other wheel showed that if you didn't have the advantage of being able to tune that detail, everything was still fine.

The AF is also not as smooth as the Lenze. By smoothness I mean the subtlety of the way the small forces are delivered. The AF can be of course tutned to smooth out bumps and whatnot, but because of its limited torque range, even a little bit of smoothing soon starts to eliminate detail.

So if you want the detail in AF, you can't have it as smooth as you would get it in the Lenze. That's all. Doesn't mean you can't have smooth detail in the AF, but it's just the nature of how different those wheels are.

However, the fact that you CAN customize the detail of the AF, and be able to add so much more other effects, like bumps, engine RPM, make it immersive in its own way even though it can't deliver that high torque.



Sooo, the AF is rated at 13Nm, and the Bodnar at 16Nm, and you said that Naid said that the Bodnar feels more like the Lenze which is 20Nm?

...uhh, yeah. In fact, different motors may be rated the same torque and feel completely different, apparently. So I'll make it simple. Don't go by the numbers, but go by what you feel.


What about safety?
With the AF you can probably hurt yourself a little.
With a wheel like an OSW, especially since it doesn't have any controls around oscillation, you can SERIOUSLY INJURE YOURSELF! Seriously, and that's not a joke. Just like in a race car, and another point for immersion, check! <-- that was a joke.



Should I sell my AF and trade it for an OSW or a Bodnar
Whoa, whoa, slow down there champ and let's revisit:
AF is an $1800 package, while the other two are $4-5K delivered.

Do the other wheels offer twice the performance for more than twice the price? I don't know if its twice the performance, but definitely more than one and half times the torque for sure. Torque, it turns out, makes a significant difference to the amount of immersion you get from the wheel. Just because you can tune and refine the hell out of the FFB in AccuForce, the added torque is significant enough to give a player a much more exciting and immersive experience.

So in reality, if torque really is such a deciding factor for performance, then the AF delivers the great performance for its price with the added bonus of being able to tune it like no other wheel before. The other wheels deliver more torque, but for a significant price increase. So all wheels are good value, you just have to decide which is the right one for you.

So are there really any losers in this? Absolutely not.



Should you feel disappointed you got an AF instead of an OSW or Bodnar?
I don't know, do you normally feel disappointed you didn't have to pay an extra $2-3,000?
Do you bitch about owning a $200K Lamborghini instead of a $500K Ferrari? Poor you.

I'm not, and mostly because I can't afford an OSW or a Bodnar, or a $15,000 motion simulation package form D-Box that makes my balls pack up and go inside of me when I crest the hill at the Skyline corner at Bathurst in a Lotus 79. ...and even if I could, my wife won't let me, because believe me, she's had it with my car ****. We all have one reason or another that limits our wants and forces us to instead satisfy our needs.

The AF is enough. The others just give you MOAR, and you need to pay for it.



But I could build an OSW for the price of an AF because shipping an AF to my country is assrape
Unless you value tuning capability more than torque, then your choice is clear... and I'm jealous. As Naid said, it's not like Berney is running a charity here. He has a business to run, salaries to pay, and invested years of his life to bring something to market for those of us who can't afford a Bodnar and have a great experience. Is he wrong to charge you a premium... you selfish bastard who only throws stones at him every chance you get? Have some respect for the community and capitalism. Unlike communism, It ****ing works!



Are the OSW and Bodnar in a different league than the AF?
Yes. The torque difference alone puts them in different leagues. So maybe, perhaps, this wasn't a fair comparison? Then in that case the AF is in a market segment all on its own. Unrivaled!



What is the ideal wheel then?
A 25Nm AccuForce with SimCommander which is FREE. Berney, it's time to make a wheel with a stronger motor. Do it!



...but, ...but
The great thing about all of this, as Naid pointed out to me, if Bodnar didn't come to market, we wouldn't have had such a significant change in the landscape of SimWheel controllers so quickly. All of this is great stuff. We are living in the Golden Age of Sim Hardware. Rejoice, don't hate and insult each other, hug all the children you see on the street (they might be yours for all you know), and enjoy this revolution in SimRacing hardware!

 

One thing is that spinning front wheels resists turning in real life but that doesn't seem to be simulated in rf2. Atleast someone said that he managed to get front wheel driven car on it's roof and tested if steering gets heavier if front wheels are spinning faster and it didn't. This resistance against turning would make steering less snappy. Basicly same thing that adding friction does, but it would be proportional to speed.

This was answer or something to Paul Loatman*s post.

 

Turning spinning wheel causes masses to accelerate and deaccelerate. It's difficult to explain without pictures, but this video shows the effect
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H98BgRzpOM

 

Maybe someone could ask from ISI if they have considered this effect in some way or not. Atleast for ffb this might be important.

 

@metalnwood

That last post was terrific-- thanks for sharing it.

 

It should be pretty easy to test if gyroscopic torque is simulated. Entering a no grip surface (modified TDF file removing gras materials for example) with a FWD car and turning the wheel both sides while accelerating should clarify if the effect of spinning wheels is appreciated or not.

If someone can test it and report his findings it would be very nice. I Don't have the wheel with me at to test it

Enviado desde mi GT-I9505 mediante Tapatalk

 

The effect could also be proportional to speed of the car. Not speed of the tyres. Then that car being on it's roof test wouldn't work, so doing what Eurotracks said would be worth trying.

In my opinion adding right amount of dampening works pretty well. It's constant, and not proportional to speed, but it's not so bad thing, because in slow speeds friction of the tyres would start to resist steering.

 

It should not be dependent on the speed of the car. Gyroscopic precession/effect is dependent on the speed of rotating mass.

But I was thinking about a wheels off the ground scenario and realised you shouldn't feel any of the gyroscopic effect through the steering anyway. Here's my reasoning.

If you steer to the left on a FWD car with its tyres off the ground, the resulting gyroscopic action should simply try to rotate the left tyre in the direction of negative camber and the right tyre in positive. Remember, the resultant action occurs 90 degrees later with the gyroscopic effect.

Same as how helicopters pitch and roll. The inputs are 90 degrees out of phase (i.e. need to occur 90 degrees earlier than you think it should).

Edit: small correction to wording at the end.

 

If you want to change the direction of the angular momentum vector you will have to overcome it by providing the resultant gyroscopic torque to the steering wheel. Both tires rotate around parallel axis when turning the wheel so the gyroscopic torque will have the same direction in both wheels and add together.

I don't understand DrR1pper when saying you have a 90 degree delay???
Delay is measured in time. Degrees would imply a phase shift that I don't know how it could apply here. ¿?¿? I don't understand how it would apply on a helicopter either. Could you please explain your point?

If you turn the handlebar of a bike with the front wheels rotating at high speed you will notice the resistance. The higher speed the higher resistance.

Enviado desde mi GT-I9505 mediante Tapatalk

 

people are just pointing the finger of Nm power because it's a simple thing to pick on ...the higher the Nm the better right ?


why were people so "amazed" the the AF didn't fair well against the superior hardware of the OSW / Bodnar ?
they expected it be the best too & why ??

 

my guess it's the hype/marketing around the AF leading up to its launch ( & still ongoing now )

whilst I think simX has laid it on thick (& has constantly ) they can not be blamed
in spite of being irritated by this various times I think they are a good co.
I have to market my company & sell its services (so I do pretty much the same thing :

when I go into see potential clients I pretty much say everything that indicates that my companies services are the very best choice available for buyers in their position, I am keen for them to "take advantage " of it

I also give the impression that companies throughout the UK are benefiting from our services & taking advantage of the unique way in which we ( my company ) works,

I will then offer to work on something (a test small order) on a trial basis with initial samples / test free of charge as I am very keen to "help" them

I'll also emphasise that timing is ideal as due to the demand for our services we have recently expanded and are ideally positioned to take on more custom/orders

I will then run through a few case examples where my company has extended its services to suit clients with a tailored service optimised to specific client needs

when the meeting or presentation is going really well and I'm on a roll I even have to take notes whilst listening to myself due to the phases and constant stream of fantastic sounding information that is coming out of my own mouth , it's as if a divine force has taken over and it is speaking through me ( imagine pounds signs in my eyes at this point )

I could go on ......and sometimes if I think it would be to my companies advantage ..... I do


p.s this patter was pretty much the same when I had just started the business and ran it all by myself from a desk in a room from my house with no clients lol

facts & real reality sometimes falls into the background when a sales process is underway, sometimes promoting a bit of confusion is a good tactic too