Renault 3.5 - Like driving on ice!

Discussion in 'Technical Archives' started by ROON, Apr 30, 2012.

  1. ROON

    ROON Registered

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    Seriously, how are you supposed to drive this thing?

    I'd given this car a few short runs in the past and had already decided that it's an awful representation of a single seater, but this afternoon I figured I'd give it another shot and see if I could somehow wrap my head around how to drive it. After an hour of trying to set a competetive lap time against 95% strength AI at Sepang, I gave up. To me the characteristics of this car seem fundamentally flawed. It may not be a Formula 1, but it's still a relatively high downforce vehicle, and thus it should not feel as though I'm attempting to drive on top of a frozen lake.

    The main problem is that it's totally unpredictable. Sudden loss of grip occurs and slides ensue in the strangest of places, where a car of this standard should not lose control. To top it off, the oscillation through the FFB makes a small slide quickly become near impossible to correct. I find it very hard to drive this car anywhere near the limits it should be able to achieve, and I cannot drive it with the same momentum and aggression that can be put into the Historic Formula's or the tin-tops. I in fact find it easier to set a flying lap around Spa in the 1960's F1's than it is to put in a really fast time at Sepang in the Formula Renault. When that can be said, I believe there is something wrong.

    Does anyone else feel the same way?
     
  2. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    Roon, please try a 3.5 around SPA. You ll be amazed! Grip everywhere, fantastic control, dont have to think before turns anymore, nice lap times even with max speed less than F1 60s. Megane is very nice there too.
    For me it proves how significant work ISI has done distinguising in feel of different cars and eras.
     
  3. sugarfoot

    sugarfoot Registered

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    Have a look in the hdv file. This car has no front springs and rock hard rear springs. It's no wonder it has no rear grip.
     
  4. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    To go on about this, as we drove around modern tracks with Mauro's mod in F3=FUN server, I found, that while you can go flat out during almost all SPA, with 60s F3s that is, at the rest of the tracks there were not many places for 5th. The reason I believe for this, is that SPA was really an everyday road connecting villages. As such it is laid so everyday driver can cope with it easily, while designed tracks, new and old, are created to provide a serious challenge for the racing driver.
    Just my thought anyway.
     
  5. ROON

    ROON Registered

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    sugarfoot - Sounds about right. I tried softening the springs in the garage but no amount of setup tweaking could give me any sense of connection with the road. Rear end is all over the shop and there's seemingly nothing you can do to fix that.

    1959nikos - What you've said about Spa is correct, it's true that modern racing facilities are vastly different to what was used back in those days. However I think we can all agree that driving around Spa in the Historic F1's at high speed is no easy feat, in fact, it's quite difficult. My comparison was mainly to say that I feel more comfortable and in control of a historic car with no downforce than I do in the modern Renault 3.5, which to me doesn't seem right. After I gave up with the 3.5's this evening I hopped in a Spark F2 and had a great time driving around Mid-Ohio, I was able to really push the car to it's limits, hold onto it when I overstepped them, and generally feel as if I was in control rather than a passenger. If this can be done in the historic Formula's I don't understand why the 3.5, a vastly superior vehicle, is next to impossible to control. It can only lead me to believe that the 3.5 has been inaccurately portrayed by ISI.
     
  6. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    I must insist, take 3.5 to SPA :)

    I dont think old "tracks" were so much different than today, problem is SPA is not really a track, its just ordinary road.
     
  7. PLAYLIFE

    PLAYLIFE Member

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    Although fun, running a R3.5 around Spa is not really a good way to determine how realistic the car is. Any car with a reasonably sized wing at 280kph is going to feel grippy and will completely disguise the mechanical grip shortcomings.

    ROON, I too felt the R3.5 was 'unrepresentative' also. There's a thread from a few months ago with a discussion, I even provided some real onboard shots and some info about R3.5 to compare it.

    The biggest gripe I had though was the sound. Even a scalextric sounds more throaty.
     
  8. jubuttib

    jubuttib Registered

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    It is indeed a very slippery car, but I personally can't make a call on it before the tyre temperature physics are properly implemented.

    Those type of Formula cars are notoriously hard to drive and slippery when running on cold tyres, and seeing how we currently don't get any heat into the tyres without sliding them (so only spinning the wheels while accelerating, locking them while braking or sliding them when under or oversteering heats them up currently, but loading them otherwise has no effect, rolling resistance doesn't do anything, neither does shifting the weight etc.) it's very hard to say anything.

    Having seen many times how slippery those type of cars seem to be in real life if the driver can't get heat into them I think the current tyres behave like they're supposed to at the temps normally achieved in the game (i.e. too low temps). Until we can just drive a few laps and get the tyres to 80 degrees or so without doing burnouts, drifts or locking the brakes it's almost impossible to say how realistically they behave at the intended temps.

    This temp problem is the only reason I'm currently not playing the game, btw.
     
  9. CdnRacer

    CdnRacer Banned

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    Yep!! After spending quite some time trying to figure it out I gave up. :p I can't give you an explanation either. I can get it to feel different with different setup changes but the lack of grip in some areas was impossible for me to get rid of. I can actually say that the FFB with this car isn't very informative either.

    If I remember correctly Tim has said the team has decided to move over to graphics and not finish the physics for now. You can thank all of the graphics nay sayers for that. :D
     
  10. CdnRacer

    CdnRacer Banned

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    The 370Z tire temps are very easy to maintain. That car doesn't have the problem you are discussing. The gtr is the same but I can't confirm.
     
  11. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead Staff Member

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    For sure a too slippery car.

    Here in Italy I'm used to follow this class on TV (EuroSport 2) and I can assure you these cars have A LOT of grip...



    The old 2009;



    These are some quotes from F3.5 drivers:

    Nico Müller : “The new treads are at their best when there’s a lot of water on the track. They offer an amazing amount of grip in extreme conditions. We need to learn how to look after these tyres, though, because they get worn really quickly if you’re not careful and then you’re in whole lot of trouble. We’ve still got a lot of work to do in the dry, but having the chance to work on a wet track has given us some useful preparation for the season ahead.”

    Sam Bird (ISR) : “The new Formula Renault 3.5 is a very efficient, well-balanced car and fun to drive too. Even in the wet you can feel how competitive it is. I really feel that this is the championship to be in this season if you want to prepare properly for the number-one category, which is Formula one.”
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2012
  12. Simon Druce

    Simon Druce Registered

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  13. feels3

    feels3 Member

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    To be honest all cars in rf2 are too slippery and unpredictable ;) , even my favorite Historical OW which are unbelievably fun to drive :)

    Real cars are definitely much more stable and reaction are more smooth.

    But I'm sure ISI is working on physics :)
     
  14. LeChuck

    LeChuck Registered

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    Yes I do believe that the car needs more work, I'm sure that the next patches will correct that rear end tendency
     
  15. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    feels3 : Real cars are definitely much more stable and reaction are more smooth

    +1, though I have not raced, cannot believe its hummanly possible to drive a car with F1s reactions.
     
  16. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    f3.5 may need some work, yes, but when cars are at the limit of grip they all are extremely sensitive to throttle, brake and steering inputs. A car with lots of downforce will give you more grip but once you reach the edge of that grip, or come close to it you still have to "dance" with the car. If your not sliding, then your not pushing hard enough and not getting the most out of the car. When pushing real hard in real life you can constantly feel the car sliding, not always big drifts, but just tons of small little slides with very fast corrections, you are dancing with the car, on a line, grip, slide, grip, no grip, slide, grip, grip, all tiny amounts very very quickly happening. It is very dynamic and always changing hundreds of times a second, super complex. With rfactor2's improved physics model and tyre model being much more dynamic these grip and slides are constantly changing aswell more times per second and in more complex ways than in sims before, its much more realistic.

    In rfactor 2 and all sims its so easy for a human to just give a car full throttle. In real life you can feel so much more that the backend is getting light and nervous and therefore you go 90% throttle, then 85%, then maybe 90% then finally 100%, you are doing tiny sensitive moments without noticing it because your body and brain reacts to the car feeling without thinking, 100% natural because you can feel everything. In real life you can feel the car slipping/sliding before you can even see it from your eyes. In real life you tend to lift a little more, a little longer, in real life you tend to be a little more hesitant on putting the power down, you take a little longer to go from a little throttle to 100% throttle, you building your way up to the speed of a car and track much more gradually, much more sensitively.

    I have driven formula 1600's, have raced and tested formula 2000's, and had a 2 day test with a 450ish hp prototype. If I drove like some people think (lots of downforce = stable and easy) I would be dead right now.

    The guy in this vid says the tyre temps were not optimum,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV39oIqRzPc

    now if the driver in that video was a different driver who pushed just slightly less (or was a better driver), they would have made the car look more stable and easy to drive to people watching on tv/internet, and then everybody would be saying "see everybody, the cars have soo much grip and downforce, look, no sliding, so easy to drive", but in the car for the driver its a different story, the car is ALWAYS moving around and sliding even when it looks like its not, I promise you guys. Unless you arent pushing of course. Everything looks so easy on tv/internet because you cant see things like the driver pushed the throttle a tiny bit later than normal, braked a tiny bit softer than normal, went a tiny bit slower than normal, and so on, you cant see that on tv.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2012
  17. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead Staff Member

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    Nice analysis. I 100% agree. Sometimes we forget we're driving sitting in a chair...:)

    PS: are you Loris Spinelli? :p
     
  18. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    Impressive post, thats what i think it is...
     
  19. taufikp

    taufikp Registered

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    Based on Spinelli's post, I get a perception/impression that rF2 physics is quite close to real life condition in racing as described in detail by Spinelli.

    Now, this would be a very interesting opportunity to make a normal road car (such as the car used in Top Gear's Celebrity Lap) and find out how realistic the tyre model is when driven in Tuttle's upcoming Top Gear track :)
     
  20. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    No tuttle, my name isnt Loris haha. Tauk yes I think rf2 has the potential/will be pretty damn good physics/tyre model/vehicle dynamics (pretty sure those are all the same things lol) wise. I think in the short term, in terms of PURE DRIVNG, rF2 and Assetto Corsa (Sequal to netkar pro) will be the top dogs. Of course this is only my oppinion, and actually more a prediction of what my oppinion will be once they are released.

    Again, not saying the WSR3.5 is perfect or rF2 for that matter.
     

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